<Agathorn>
its a method for estimating ∆v to orbit based on various craft properties
<Agathorn>
yea the search within doesn't tive the whole section though
<pap1723>
nevermind, that isn't as good as it usually is for that site
<pap1723>
sorry
<xShadowx>
Agathorn: local library ? :p
<Agathorn>
what are those
<xShadowx>
city run buildings with free movies
<Agathorn>
cool
<xShadowx>
its like torrenting without the download speed
<xShadowx>
now i wish i said "precursor to piratebay"
<xShadowx>
XD'
<Agathorn>
I can check the library here but no idea if they would have such an esoteric book
<Agathorn>
even if they do I don't have a library card :p
<pap1723>
You'll most likely get it through an inter-library loan
<Agathorn>
the annoying thing is the book is supposed to be public domain, yet finding a PDF has proven impossible
<Agathorn>
best I did was find an online ocr view of the book but it can't be downloaded, so lots of screenshoting :(
<xShadowx>
1962 book o.O
<xShadowx>
ya library id say is a better bet
<Starwaster>
At one point, balsa was considered as an insulating material for the SIVB LH2 tank...
<Agathorn>
that seems.. odd
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<pap1723>
Looks like there will be 171 total contracts
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<stratochief>
Starwaster: interesting. they could have had similar levels of boiloff, no? S-II being better insulated than the S-IVB
<stratochief>
Agathorn: you can probably search your local library network online without a card, see if they have the book
<stratochief>
Agathorn: do you have access to the Vancouver system itself, or are you in one of the 'Burb cities?
<stratochief>
I've been impressed by what the Mississauga system itself has, but I will probably eventually get a Toronto card for more esoteric stuff
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<stratochief>
Starwaster: hell, haven't they considered making heatshields using balsa or other low density woods?
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<Starwaster>
AVCOAT had ground up cork in it. Or at least they experimented with it; I'm not sure if that was in the final product
<Starwaster>
stratochief, also, SII insulation was the same thing as on the SIVB: polyurethane foam. At first it was applied in modular panels and then later they switched to spray on. The only difference is that the SII had externally applied foam like the shuttle
<Starwaster>
A certain someone is predicting that we send humans to mars in the next 4-8 years...
<stratochief>
Starwaster: yeah... we were discussing that in #SpaceX earlier in the day. To be fair, that someone has a substantial amount of power he could exercise to make that happen
<stratochief>
NASA could easily to a flyby within 8 years, and could plausibly carry out a Mars orbital mission by then
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<Starwaster>
I don't doubt the technical ability to go there eventually, but we are not far enough along to make it happen in the timeline provided
<stratochief>
Starwaster: to make which happen?
<stratochief>
I don't think they could get a landing designed and done by then, but flyby and orbital could be done IMO
<Starwaster>
Compare the proposed Orion timeline to Apollo history. We need to be further along and moving at a faster pace and certain progress needs to have happened already. And that's just the Orion part of it
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<stratochief>
man, fuck the recent NASA timelines, they suck. Hell, Dragon could replace Orion if orion couldn't abide by the timeline required for the rest of the hardware
<stratochief>
we'd have 7 years, right? 7 years was 1962 if we're comparing this to the 1969 accomplishment of lunar landing
<stratochief>
and in this case, we're 1-2 years from flying Orion, while 1962 was 3-5 years from flying Saturn V
<Starwaster>
next Mars launch window is next year. Next one after that is 2020
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<Starwaster>
let's just assume it's a given we're not making next year's window for anything human
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<Starwaster>
we'll get a lunar flyby... if we're lucky
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<Starwaster>
so... three years to do a human flyby? Do you really see that happening?
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<Starwaster>
honestly we've been dragging our feet
<stratochief>
Starwaster: no. I'm talking 7-8 years
<stratochief>
although a crash program could do a flyby in 3-4, sure. I don't see it happening, but it is certainly possible.
<Starwaster>
technically possible to do IF we had already been moving along at a faster pace instead of the sedate meandering path we've been taking
<stratochief>
no, technically possible given the hardware that already exists and is in the nearterm pipeline
<stratochief>
hardest part of a flyby would be an ejection propulsion module, and you could physically couple a number of SLS ICPS, or Centaurs, or SpaceX upper stages, or whatever you'd want to slap together in a pinch to throw a ~30T flyby craft on a Mars flyby
<stratochief>
Bigello for habitat, Dragon or Orion for sending crew to the craft and re-entry of Earth's atmosphere
<stratochief>
flyby is easy-sauce
<stratochief>
do I think they will? no. do I think they should? no. I think they should aim for an orbital mission in 8-10 years, which would be a better investment of money instead of crash program for flyby in 3-4
<stratochief>
I certainly agree that a lot of time and money has been squandered in human spaceflight or technology development potential by NASA, going as far back as the development of the Shuttle
<stratochief>
but with a A. Concrete, near term goal and B. Adequate funding to accomplish that goal, I think NASA could get a flyby or orbit of Mars accomplished
<taniwha>
hmm, even having humans just in orbit around Mars would be highly beneficial
<taniwha>
and certainly easier than having them on the ground
<stratochief>
taniwha: yeah. a human mission to orbit mars is entirely within our technological grasp. I would agree it is hard to justify the cost against the potential of that ~15 billion dollar cost if it were instead invested in purely science driven space missions
<Probus>
What is the IRC command to see when the last time Felger logged on?
<Probus>
Its been a while hasn't it
<Probus>
Nice. I'll have to check that out waerloga
<stratochief>
Probus: I don't recall, sorry
<Probus>
Dang, I wish I had seen that before I learned kOS
<waerloga>
hmm /seen ?
<Probus>
*weights
<stratochief>
~seen Felger
<stratochief>
!seen Felger
<Qboid>
stratochief: I haven't seen the user Felger yet.
<stratochief>
lol, well alright then Qboid
* stratochief
sets aside paper on J-2S for later reading
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<stratochief>
pft, this regex guy? no thanks
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<stratosleep>
regex: Factorio 0.15 is available. Now with Uranium (and more customizable start coolness)
<regex>
vOv
<regex>
Yeah, I've been following the dev blogs
<regex>
I don't think I'll play again until 0.16, I don't want to burn out before the finale
<stratosleep>
I just finished a few steam accomplishments in 0.14, I was very happy how they made trains better and easier to use in 0.14
<regex>
It looks amazing
<stratosleep>
yay, Vintage Space appears to be doing an ep on Saturn V MLV's
<regex>
I .love falling asleep to space documentaries
<pap1723>
Factorio is a deep, deep hole that takes a long time to get out of
<rsparkyc>
Pap1723: i'm working on extending ContractConfigurator to allow for orbits you can do in principia
<rsparkyc>
should just be a matter of adding a new contract parameter
<pap1723>
Nice rsparkyc
<rsparkyc>
who knows if it will actually work :)
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<regex>
Anyone recommend a good skybox?
<regex>
for RO?
<pap1723>
regex,
<pap1723>
I use Poodmund's Milky Way Skybox
<regex>
I just found that, looks nice, thanks for the recommend
<rsparkyc>
what the heck…i'm targeting this dll to .NET 3.5, but i'm getting this error
<rsparkyc>
Error loading types from assembly [my assembly here] The classes in the module cannot be loaded.
<xShadowx>
missing a dll you ref?
<rsparkyc>
only extra one would be ContractConfigurator
<rsparkyc>
and i know that's there, because i'm using it
<taniwha>
rsparkyc: check output_log.txt or Player.log (os dependent)
<rsparkyc>
yeah, i see in in Player.log
<taniwha>
I found that it will give a few more details for those errors
<rsparkyc>
[WARNING] Error loading types from assembly PrincipiaContracts, Version=1.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null: The classes in the module cannot be loaded.
<rsparkyc>
that's from PlayerLog
<taniwha>
nothing informative just above or below?
<rsparkyc>
this is the most:
<rsparkyc>
[EXC 23:32:16.186] ReflectionTypeLoadException: The classes in the module cannot be loaded.
<ThisDay>
April 26: The Ranger IV lunar impactor hits the moon in 1962. Unfortunately the probe had failed shortly after launch and thus no data was returned.
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<pap1723>
Way to be depressing April 26th
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<pap1723>
Alright, I have created a Dropbox folder that can be viewed as well as edited as long as you have the link. I encourage you all to add your documents to this folder and we can all use it to share reference information that too often disappears from the Internet
<Qboid>
stratochief: I last saw NathanKell on [25.04.2017 05:01:42] in #RO saying: "later guise"
<stratochief>
damn, 5am? or 5am my time, i suppose
<Agathorn>
stratochief: I am in Vancouver downtown. The big library that looks like the coliseum is right up the street from my work
<riocrokite>
at least he's online :)
<rsparkyc>
!seen stratochief
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: I last saw stratochief on [26.04.2017 14:25:33] in #RO saying: "damn, 5am? or 5am my time, i suppose"
<rsparkyc>
i guess that time is GMT
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: 'that time'? christ, time zones are confusing
<Agathorn>
bleh an interlibrary loan request costs a fortune
<Agathorn>
might as well buy the book
<stratochief>
Agathorn: really? what is defined as 'interlibrary'? anything withing the Mississauga system will ship to my local library, a 5 minute walk away so I can pick it up
<Agathorn>
well I guess it depends on where it comes from, but i'm betting this would have to come form the US and they want a flat $15 postal charge plus some per pag cost if I am reading it right
<Agathorn>
the per pag cost might not apply, not sure
<Agathorn>
can't even make the request without a library card though so hell with it
<Agathorn>
too much work for now
<Agathorn>
if I get desperate and need it later I will worry about it then. Until now I sill make do with what pieces I could find online
<stratochief>
ahh; so the entire Vancouver system lacks the book you want?
<Agathorn>
apparently? I don't know.. i searched the card catalogue first and nothing came up
<Agathorn>
the only other option I was was the InterLibrary Request
<Agathorn>
s/I was/I saw
<stratochief>
what is the name of the book? i can search my system
<Qboid>
Agathorn meant to say: the only other option I saw was the InterLibrary Request
<Agathorn>
Design Guide To Orbital Flight
<stratochief>
yeah, my system doesn't have it
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<rsparkyc>
Pap1723: first stab at a principia contract
<rsparkyc>
yeah, need to fine tune some stuff, but the basics for L1-L3 seem to wookr
<rsparkyc>
*work
<rsparkyc>
i need to find a way to differentiate between L4 and L5
<schnobs>
no way of telling whether you're ahead or behind?
<pap1723>
Nice rsparkyc
<rsparkyc>
not sure yet, i think i'd need to look at my phase angle from the smaller body
<TwistedMinds>
rsparkyc, I'm still adjusting (and challenged! love it) to RO/RP-0 so yeaah, that's already good in my book :)
<schnobs>
forgive me if this is a faq, but do we have instructions for RO/RP-0 on top of current KSP?
<schnobs>
like, what do I need to slap on in which order.
<pap1723>
For differentiating from L4 and L5 cant you use something like Mean anomoly at Epoch? So if your time to PE is less than your time to AP, then your MNA needs to be higher than Moon, otherwise it needs to be lower?
<pap1723>
schnobs,
<pap1723>
what do you mean?
<pap1723>
Like is there an order of what to install?
<TwistedMinds>
Order shouldn't be an issue, I haven't run into any overwrite/folder merge while installing it
<TwistedMinds>
although I might have missed something, still working on one issue I have (but it's lighting related, not gameplay)
<rsparkyc>
schnobs: start with a blank KSP install
<rsparkyc>
then i'd recommend just going through the spreadsheet, tab by tab
<rsparkyc>
(at least until everything is up on CKAN)
<schnobs>
"The Spreadsheet" seems to be what I'm looking for.
<rsparkyc>
Pap1723 PE to what? the larger body? the smaller body?
<TwistedMinds>
rsparkyc, most of it is on ckan though, if I figure out how I might try to comment/tag the spreadsheet
<rsparkyc>
i'd like not not have to rely on those, as you don't know which SoI i'll actually be in
<pap1723>
That's r4ight, I am thinking in terms of regular KSP, gotta break that habit
<rsparkyc>
someone started adding notes to the spreadsheet about CKAN
<pap1723>
rsparkyc, I wouldn't overthink the L4/L5 issue. In the description of the contract, just tell the player that L4 is in "front" of the Moon and L5 is "behind" the Moon. Then just use the same distance checking functions you are using for L1-L3
<Probus>
*rates
<rsparkyc>
yeah, but if i can find an easy way to do it, i'd like to
<schnobs>
ahem... just to be on the safe side, "current" KSP is 1.2.2 ...right?
<waerloga>
last time i looked, yes
<rsparkyc>
yep
<TwistedMinds>
btw, sorry if it isn't the place to ask but I've been trying to figure this out all day long yesterday. Is there a known issue with RSS where the shadow are pitch black, and the night too? Happens with a base install of RSS (and dependancies)
<TwistedMinds>
Someone else posted on the RSSVE's thread but it actually happens to me with base RSS.
<schnobs>
hmm. Can't see AJE on ckan. Or PP.
<TwistedMinds>
use the link from the spreadsheet, should send you directly to the relevant github release
<schnobs>
ProcFairings, yes. Textures for ProcParts, yes. But not ProcParts itself.
<schnobs>
Yep. It's just that someone seems to have updated the "CKAN?" column only minutes ago. Whoever did that was a bit too eager.
<TwistedMinds>
Yeah the "ckan?" column is wack, but it's been moving fast on ckan the last couple of days
<Probus>
What is node.js?
<Probus>
regex AIES needs to be patched, but I can't the patches online anymore.
<rsparkyc>
node.js is a server side platform for running javascript
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<Probus>
Did some of the forum get archived or something similar?
<pap1723>
Probus, a while ago a bunch of stuff got completely deleted...
<schnobs>
I'm sorry to pester you once more, but I can't make sens of the FAR link on the spreadsheed.
<stratochief>
why not just make a contract that would accept either L4 or L5?
<stratochief>
I don't recall what the spreadsheet points at. but for a spreadsheet pointing at something static rather than an active Git branch is probaby superior
<schnobs>
won't that just give me the source? Which I could conceivably compile myself, but... well.
<schnobs>
The spreadsheed links to a few commits. Ah. One of them is a dll.
<schnobs>
I guess I just get the most recent FAR and dump the DLL on top of it?
<stratochief>
schnobs: note that in the link I shared, it contains a whole GameData folder
<pap1723>
stratochief, here is the link to the Dropbox repository of files that we talked about yesterday. Add to it and share it with all!
<Probus>
That's a good altitude Pap1723. Seems like anything of 80K might work.
<stratochief>
I haven't had luck finding a price for just the MOXIE experiment itself on the upcoming Mars 2020 rover. I was hoping to use that as a basic for pricing my own solid oxide electrolysis hardware for RP-0
<stratochief>
Pap1723: nice! you should share that in the RO forum page. I'll save the link for myself :)
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<pap1723>
stratochief, couldn't you request a FOIA from NASA for that info?
<stratochief>
Pap1723: possibly. but those take 1. time 2. money
<stratochief>
I'm fine guesstimating it for now. it's not like solid oxide electrolysis is an unknown process
<pap1723>
I didn't know they cost money, screw that idea
<waerloga>
#1 being the biggest sink in an FOIA request
<waerloga>
yeah, there's a processing fee in an attempt to keep frivilious requests down
<pap1723>
Last number I saw was the whole thing cost 1.9 billion, can you guesstimate based off the cost of Curiosity?
<stratochief>
Pap1723: hell no, since curiosity (and nearly everything else that goes to Mars) is an entire rover, without the experiment I'm interested in
<stratochief>
I intend to just throw some static non-rover ISRU experiments onto Mars, because I'm smart and cheap and paving the way for humans to Mars, not doing robotic science missions
<Probus>
*over
<pap1723>
Probus, what was that message in regards to about the 80k?
<rsparkyc>
as for FAR and the spreadsheet, i always have it point to the most recent commit i've tested
<rsparkyc>
same with the latest version i've tested
<rsparkyc>
so that's why the far link is so weird
<rsparkyc>
in general, just grab the KSP_Update branch
<TwistedMinds>
rsparkyc, hah! darn I just commented on a bunch of 'em with new release. I hope I didn't fsck your organization :p
<rsparkyc>
no, comments are fine
<rsparkyc>
soon everything will be on ckan anyway :)
<rsparkyc>
biggest holdup is FAR
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<TwistedMinds>
Hey, you're that guy who almost necro-ed the same thread as me. Hi rsparkyc :> Didn't realize it was you
<rsparkyc>
well i only saw it because you necro-ed it
<rsparkyc>
i was going to comment, but then saw your EDIT
<schnobs>
INCORRECT FAR INSTALLATION
<schnobs>
yadda yadda... All FAR files should be in ...yadda
<schnobs>
Incorrect paths: (blocked by OK button)
<TwistedMinds>
if using the ksp_update branch (as you should), make sure you only copied what is under GameData
<schnobs>
let's hope I find it in a log somewhere.
<schnobs>
TwistedMinds: I did.
<rsparkyc>
all of FAR should be in RO/GameData/FerramAerospaceResearch
<rsparkyc>
(ignore RO)
<schnobs>
don't ask how I did this: RO/GameData/Deadly_Reentry/FerramAerospaceResearch
<rsparkyc>
nice
<pap1723>
Does anyone use SSTU in RP-0 career?
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<stratochief>
Pap1723: no, but it might work somewhat, like most things do. you could search the RP-0 tree for parts from SSTU to see how much, if any of them, are placed. engines might be, dunno
<Agathorn>
think thats a bit of an over reaction man
<Agathorn>
yoga
<HypergolicSkunk>
stay away from hewmans
<Agathorn>
and root beer
<Agathorn>
because they both grow on you
<schnobs>
stratochief: give.it.time
<schnobs>
I hear you, but I'd like to remind you that it's been a long time.
<Agathorn>
what for ckan compatability?
* xShadowx
reads stratochief's link and headdesks
<Agathorn>
ckan just isn't reliable or robust or flexible enough in my opnion to ever be a solid delivery system for RO and its insane complications. I'd love a simple one click install as well, but it just doesn't work. RO practically needs its own installer :)
<schnobs>
When I last played RO, I was still in my previous job and not aware that my niece is pregnant. Meanwhile I'm through the qualifying period in the new job, and the boy can sit up.
<HypergolicSkunk>
agreed!
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<Agathorn>
damnit all.. Trump is spouting off about withdrawing from NAFTA again. That will seriously fuck my life if he does that..scary :(
<waerloga>
eh, I preferred ckan for installing RP0
<waerloga>
I mean sure I ~could~ do it without
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<waerloga>
but i want to play a game, not manage mods :P
<Agathorn>
oh god he apparently is more than thinking about it :(
<schnobs>
Well, the most convenient RP-0 install ever was when I was provided with the link for the GFL reference installation.
<HypergolicSkunk>
what's really necessary is a GUI tool to customize the tech-tree :p
<schnobs>
Get one large zip, unpack, go :)
<Agathorn>
schnobs: not easily updateable though
<schnobs>
I know.
<pap1723>
stratochief, most of it is placed and works (at least the engines) I was going to ask about the tank diameters, they are not set in RP-0 right now, but the SSTU tank diameters work similar to Procedural Tanks with prettier textures, I was going to ask if I should remove the diameter limitations and create a pull request in RO
<pap1723>
Agathorn, that will kill our industry as well
<pap1723>
I have found that it is better for me to do it by hand though, that is just my personal opinion
<stratochief>
schnobs: I hear you, and it time passes at the same rate for me or anybody else who has actually contributed to RO as for users
<Probus>
ditto
<Probus>
Document Repository - That's a GREAT idea stratochief|away!
<Probus>
Even better stratochief|away, have a page of links to resource documents.
<stratochief>
Agathorn: CKAN can work ok for RO... once everything required for RO and RO itself are updated and stable enough to be on CKAN
<lamont>
i’m seriously considering setting up my own CKAN repo for RO
<Agathorn>
sure it *can* but how many millions of times have we 1) seen it screw up, 2) confuse users, or 3) just outright not work for large installs
<stratochief>
lamont: that... wouldn't work. all the mods Required for RO simply aren't updated and available on CKAN
<xShadowx>
and another ckan repo will just result in modders taking down their mods as you add them to ckan without their permission XD
<lamont>
CKAN supports third-party metadata repos
<stratochief>
Agathorn: eh, IMO it still saves time and hassle guiding people through installs, once everything is actually available updated for 1.2, and on CKAN. I hear you that CKAN isn't perfect, and can still mess up instals
<stratochief>
lamont: so? how do you intend to make an RO install work through CKAN without pre-requisites for RO?
<lamont>
put the metadata in my repo for the prereqs which are missing
<xShadowx>
oh magic metadata
<xShadowx>
so you have every mod at 1.2.2?
<stratochief>
schnobs: the bit that truly frustrates me is that support requests for people who bungle installs waste the time of RO contributers, who otherwise would be A. enjoying their lives, or B. actually working to update or improve RO itself
<xShadowx>
stratochief: A lives are overrated B is the real issue :P <3
<lamont>
it seems to me that the spreadsheet doesn’t really help people not bungle installs
<HypergolicSkunk>
which will always be the case as long as RO installs are so very sensitive that sometimes the same folders installed in a different order will result in different in-game behavior
<lamont>
if you automated the spreadsheet so that people could run some command and always get the correct install per the spreadsheet that might be a good idea...
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<TwistedMinds>
TBH, ckan is one of the worse mod manager I've had to deal with.
<xShadowx>
ckan takes code PRs :)
<TwistedMinds>
I mean.. I guess it's okay considering mods are spread throughout the whole internet. But it's more useful as an Update Reminder than a file manager
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<regex>
You know what I hate? AVC. Fucking annoying.
<regex>
Also CKAN.
<regex>
Also manual install
<xShadowx>
every game nowadays has a basic mod insaller at menu >.>
<xShadowx>
really no reason ksp should ignore doing this
<lamont>
there are package managers in every modern language (rubygems/bundler for ruby, cargo for rust, PyPI for python, etc) which largely have templates for how all these problems are solvable at scale which is vastly larger than KSP
<xShadowx>
even somethin basic like factorio does
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<regex>
Factorio is far from "basic"
<TwistedMinds>
I'm pretty new to ksp but already I cannot stand Ckan. I've used it to download files quickly and modified Mod Manager (tools for Bethesda's game) to handle the downloads/files
<stratochief>
lamont: the spreadsheet wasn't meant for the average user, it is meant so that RO/RP-0 contributers have a place to track which mods are up to date, and what we're waiting on. useful for test installs, which are a necessary step before RO can be available on CKAN
<xShadowx>
lol compared to what exists elsewhere it is, factorio doesnt handle dependancies, or any effort to block bad matches
<stratochief>
lamont: RO isn't mystically withholding itself from CKAN. once all the mods required for RO to work are released, RO will be on CKAN soon enough, probably within a week
<xShadowx>
you can break your install from it and have to manually find mod folder and delete mod, due to game wont startup :)
<regex>
Oh, you were talking about the mod manager in Factorio?
<regex>
Your ea;oer comments could be read two ways.
<regex>
^earlier
<stratochief>
I like factorio's mod manager, but I like CKAN too. although I keep my Factorio installs far simpler than my KSP installs
<regex>
No Bob's mods for you, eh?
<xShadowx>
? factorio starts without bob?
<pap1723>
Factorio is the devil
<pap1723>
and great at the same time
<pap1723>
That is a really, really well coded program though. The devs have done a really good job with that
<Agathorn>
I still find it amusing that a mod manager I wrote for Dragon Age Origins many years ago is still used, even though I haven't touched it since I wrote it
<Agathorn>
I even get the occosional paypal beer money from it
<regex>
Sweet!
<Agathorn>
yeah :)
<acc>
communism works
<acc>
:D
<Agathorn>
pfft
* xShadowx
wonders how hard itd be to create a mod manager within ksp
<Agathorn>
little too late to load a mod after ksp is already running
<xShadowx>
? since when does that matter?
<Agathorn>
everything is already loaded
<xShadowx>
you install a mod - auto restart ksp
<TwistedMinds>
Considering ksp load everything on startup, that'd be annoying. And it would make it a nightmare to read threads/description while installing stuff
<Agathorn>
yeah you can restart KSP but then why have it inside there to begin with
<xShadowx>
ease of use :P
<Agathorn>
thats just square peg forced into a round hole for no othe reason than to do it
<Agathorn>
I don't consider starting KSP, selecting mods then restarter KSP to be :"ease of use"
<xShadowx>
atleast of games go that route :|
<acc>
you could make it handle what's in gamedata using symlinks, before ksp starts. so it would be some sort of launcher too
<xShadowx>
s/atleast/a lot
<Qboid>
xShadowx meant to say: a lot of games go that route :|
<xShadowx>
though to be fair, most games with mods dont have as long of a restart time as ksp :|
<pap1723>
It should be managed by the KSP launcher, that is when the mods should be added and selected with a simple check box format
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<pap1723>
The damn GUI exists already, it should just exist inside of that
<lamont>
getting it to run in-game isn’t remotely the biggest issue with CKAN
<stratochief>
regex: installing Bob's mods isn't particular complicated, compared to wrangling the whole damn RP-0 stack, let alone RP-0 + parts packs and pretty bits
<pap1723>
The problem with KSP is that there is no standardized place for mods to be hosted. Factorio handles it on their own and that is why they can control it with their mod manager
<TwistedMinds>
Considering I already did some work to Mod Organizer to read the ckan's metadata (although cannot download from github... yet) and warn me if something's missing, and disabled the vfs. I might contact Tannin42 and ask him if I can work on it for ksp
<pap1723>
CKAN is tring to pull information from dozens of places without full support of the people developing the mods
<Agathorn>
sometimes against the support of people developing the mods :D
<xShadowx>
^
<lamont>
i’m not positive that the issue is the repo, but certainly all the other software package managers i know of have centralized repos
<lamont>
the big issue is the crowdsourced metadata and that the inmates are running the asylum
<xShadowx>
our inmates already escaped the asylum during the exodus :P
<Agathorn>
the really ironic thing is I think CKAN started out specifically as a way to install RP0 :p
<lamont>
mod owners should be responsible for pushing their own metadata — ideally up to a server and not to a centralized github repo
<lamont>
but now people all think CKAN is such a shit-show that a lot of mod authors want nothing at all to do with it
<rsparkyc>
"the spreadsheet wasn't made for the average user"...
<rsparkyc>
the spreadsheet wasn't made for anyone but me at first :)
<xShadowx>
lamont: and not every modder wants to A) know/deal with metadata B) push it to a 3rd party app that doesnt work bugfree, but instead causes greif
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: well, so my statement is a true one then :P
<rsparkyc>
lol
<TwistedMinds>
rsparkyc, welp. I wouldn't have done it without the spreadsheet. Even finding relevant threads is horrible for ksp. So many new threads, abandonned project ressurected under a new name, etc..
<stratochief>
I've talked to a few dedicated CKAN helpers who have been great helping Ro and related mods update their metadata, or fix issues. Olympic in particular comes to mind
<rsparkyc>
yeah, it was a pain to try to find everything
<xShadowx>
hes nice :)
<lamont>
xShadowx: but i work, professionally at $DAYJOB, with a language which has a package manager separate from the core language — and every ruby developer knows how to package a gem, knows how to edit their gemspecs and knows how to push up to rubygems.org to make their gems available. and the gem tool makes it reasonably easy to get started with ‘gem init’ / ‘gem build’ / ‘gem push’ — along with tools like ‘gem yank’ for
<lamont>
when shit goes wrong…
<rsparkyc>
when i first tried, people were telling me "you know Realism Overhaul isn't ready for 1.2.2 yet, right?"
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: well, to be fair, you know far more about software and software development than "the average user", so you understood that there has to be a place the sausage comes from before it is placed on the shelf
<rsparkyc>
oh yeah, for sure
<stratochief>
I mean, without a way to grab all the mods that make up the RSS/RO/RP-0 stack, the makers ourselves wouldn't be able to update it to new KSP versions, etc.
<Agathorn>
trying to work out the individual lines of research for me game.. getting major writer'(developer's?) block
<stratochief>
Agathorn: which game?
<Agathorn>
my game
<stratochief>
space-trade, was it?
<Agathorn>
oh no that ones on pause
<Agathorn>
I couldn't get the economic sim working the way I wanted
<Agathorn>
and without that I don't want to do the game
<Agathorn>
so I am back to my "somewhat between BARIS and KSP" original game
<stratochief>
Agathorn: starting in what era? 70s? modern time?
<Agathorn>
goal is to start at the very beginning - mid 50s? and go to near future
<xShadowx>
lamont: and when your shit lets an incompatable version of mod B installed with my mod A, user complains me to me, denying he used your tool because he knows your tool is broken and knows he wouldn't get support anyways but is too lazy to install manual first to see if issue resolved il ignore you as much as i ignore ckan ;p
<Agathorn>
right now I have the following (just a very rough braindump)
<Agathorn>
* Chemical Propulsion
<Agathorn>
* Electric Propulsion
<Agathorn>
* Materials Science
<Agathorn>
* Nuclear Propulsion
<Agathorn>
* Aerodynamics
<Agathorn>
* Life Support
<Agathorn>
* Orbital Construction
<stratochief>
Agathorn: say it, don't spray it :P pastebin, forum thread, or Github?
<Agathorn>
actually let me post something to get some input since you guys are obviously within the target audience
<TwistedMinds>
stratochief, I'm pretty sure the lack of... centralization(?) is hurting the development of mods too. I mean, I have read every threads related to RO/RP-0/RSS and my installation seems to be okay, then again I have 10-12 issue I want to report but it's so confusing it *might* be my fault, so I'm waiting to report to not be annoying to dev.
<stratochief>
Agathorn: thanks!
<stratochief>
TwistedMinds: totally fair. in part, that is why this IRC exists. So we can say "hey, I think I have everything fine, is anybody else seeing the same issue? "
<stratochief>
TwistedMinds: and, in theory, you can ask any questions regarding problems on the RO or RP-0 threads, and someone will get back to you eventually. and if that post gets no response, posting your post as a link here will get eyes on it :)
<stratochief>
we don't mind helping each other out here. insufficient information about an issue & the install leads to insufficient answers. Nathankell's "how to get help" forum thread is a good checkbox list for that info is useful to provide when inquiring about problems
<stratochief>
but really, a simple description of the problem is a good start, to see if anybody else says "Hey! I thought I was the only one!"
<xShadowx>
stratochief: that thread should go in topic :|
<Agathorn>
that URL is UNLISTED everyone, so feel free to look but please don't share it
<xShadowx>
a url? unlisted? did google agree with that statement?;p
<stratochief>
Agathorn: IIRC, Astronaut lacks a G
<Agathorn>
stratochief: that document is no doubt littered with spelling mistakes :)
<Agathorn>
it hasn't been edited in anyway and is mostly stream of consciousness
<Agathorn>
that is pretty glaring though :p
<stratochief>
Agathorn: have you played BASPM? Space Program Manager?
<Agathorn>
yes
<Agathorn>
in fact I backed it and I am in it :)
<Agathorn>
I encountered me in it once during a playthrough heh
<lamont>
xShadowx: that problem exists without any tooling, and tooling could you let *you* push metadata that accurately shows the user that mod B conflicts with your mod. if everyone uses the tooling, then that problem actually goes away.
<Agathorn>
I feel BASPM went too deep into micromanegemtn personally
<lamont>
like really, professional software developers have figured all this shit out
<lamont>
“conflicts” in metadata is pretty basic
<stratochief>
Agathorn: nice! I never ran into you. I also bought it and enjoyed it. I provided feedback that may have led to so much gemini direct, alt- programs and alt-rockets being included :)
<stratochief>
Agathorn: yeah, I agree the micromanagement was a bit deep, in particular around making research teams and traning the individuals. but the sorting tools made that low-ish pain/overhead
<Agathorn>
I am in there as an astronaut :D
<stratochief>
trickiest thing about making a game is selecting an appropriate level of abstraction
<Agathorn>
also assigning mission personell and managing multiple teans
<Agathorn>
gets really painful with large missions
<stratochief>
I'll have to try sending you to the Moon sometime
<pap1723>
Agathorn, here is the Tech Tree that I came up with for a KSP Race into Space mod. Parts are over-simplistic, but might give you some ideas...https://pastebin.com/tRJaqRSN
<stratochief>
yeah. I had to take notes about how many of the various operations specializations I would need for various programs, to ensure I hired and trained enough in time
<Agathorn>
they made it especially hard given the icons used to represent roles didn't even match between different screens
<Agathorn>
that game had such promise but is filled with horribly rough edges that I don't think were ever sanded down
<TwistedMinds>
lamont, you said it. Professional software developers. When you get paid to do a job, you do it. But you cannot FORCE a mod creator to also keep a metadata up to date. The technology is here, but finding people dedicated enough to keep it rolling it hard
<Agathorn>
in any case my plan is not just the classic "space race" but more intended to be a single player experience that covers from the earliest days of space to the near future with colonization
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<stratochief>
Agathorn: I was just thinking about "ahead of time penalties" when you mentioned the concept; great minds things alike :)
<xShadowx>
lamont: you assume issues only exist with metadata, and thats the golden fix for life to be perfect, which is far from correct
<stratochief>
Olympic1: heyyy. I name dropped you as an awesome person who has helped the RO team with CKAN issues in the past :)
<Agathorn>
stratochief: :)
<stratochief>
Agathorn: the inverse should exist as well. if NASA doesn't develop solid rockets, eventually the military or navy will, so developing them should be easier. same with most things that cross into other industry/applicaton. few exceptions to that, IMO, but a gradient can be set
<Agathorn>
that is a good point
<Olympic1>
stratochief: thanks
* xShadowx
gives Olympic1 cookies
* Olympic1
eats the cookies
<stratochief>
I am trying to think of techs that don't see cross-benefit with other industries, like anything super-specific to spacetech. maybe landing gear for unknown bodies? but even nuclear thermal or ion propulsion benefit from civilian and military development in nuclear reactors, electronic engineering, etc.
<xShadowx>
life suport
<xShadowx>
heatshield for re rentry
<stratochief>
anyway, TL;DR Agathorn, I'm very interested in helping provide feedback and support with your game, even to the point of potentially helping code (time permitting)
<Agathorn>
yeah right now i'm thinking the research cost is sort of a bubble with it increasing in cost a bit to the right and decreasing in cost a bit to the left
<stratochief>
xShadowx: heatshields are used for nuclear re-entry vehicles. life support is useful for submarines, high altitude planes
<stratochief>
Agathorn: what about 'Space Construction' as a general field, including orbital construction and things like wet lab conversion?
<xShadowx>
stratochief: different forms of life support exist, from simply storing O2 / filtering out CO2, to using power to split seawater into H/O2
<stratochief>
Agathorn: and Pap1723's entire list of science instruments could be a line of development as well. getting to the planets is only half the battle. making valuable and light weight science payloads is critical as well
<Agathorn>
wet lab conversion?
<xShadowx>
subs can use both, i dont see seawater in orbit :P
<Agathorn>
I admit I have no idea what that is
<stratochief>
xShadowx: certainly. but advances in one field make the other field a bit less "bleeding edge", to varying extents
<stratochief>
Agathorn: no harm, it was an Apollo Applications idea that got cut. converting a spent fuel tank into a habitat for astronauts
<Agathorn>
ahh yes I heard about that
<pap1723>
That is one issue I see with RP-0 right now, you don't really have to pick and choose which science instruments to send on an interplanetary mission as they do not weigh very much. I know that is a big thing with normal probe development
<stratochief>
the orignal plan was to launch a Saturn IB with hardware to fiti it out as a station, then send up a crew to pop the lid on the hydrogen tank, and do some Ikea magic
<pap1723>
Agathorn, the idea was to launch a Saturn IB with the S-IVB then emptied of fuel and used as the lab
<pap1723>
and stratochief sniped me
<Agathorn>
he's good at that
<stratochief>
Pap1723: agreed. although adding/configging Scansat parts would accomplish that somewhat. there should be heavier experiments, that draw more power, or need to send much more data back to Earth to gain Science credit, calling for a larger dish to be brought along
<stratochief>
Pap1723: that balance could certainly be struck. parts for more advances science would first need to be configured, then the value of science would need to be re-normalized to attain a similar level of science point progression to what we have now
<stratochief>
I have fast (but misspelling) hands, but NathanKell always snipes me when we race
<pap1723>
That'll be something that I can look at down the road after the contracts
<stratochief>
Pap1723: yep. there will always be worthwhile places to spend time when it comes to improving RO/RP-0, no matter what someone's areas of interest or expertise are in :)
<stratochief>
Agathorn: let us know when you have more game concepts fleshed out, or when you're fishing for ideas
<pap1723>
One other science question...Why was the decision made to get full science on transmit? The only reason I ask is that it doesn't encourage multiple launches to the same place. My thought was to 50% all science transmissions and then it would take 2 full missions to get all the data
<stratochief>
Pap1723: because, abstracting it to 50/50 seems unrealistic? maybe if the base part was only capable of getting 50% of the science, then a later upgrade would allow 100% transmission or the alternative was to recover the part? not sure what is realistic/game-fun/fair
<riocrokite>
interesting ideas
<xShadowx>
this chan is busy with ideas today :P
<stratochief>
a biome specific experiment will only nab a bit of science during flyby. once you can achieve an orbit, you can make sure you fly over all biomes, nabbing the rest? I feel that is how RP-0 works now
<riocrokite>
I wonder what happened
<pap1723>
stratochief, that is a VERY interesting idea and I like that idea
<stratochief>
Pap1723: if you (or anyone) can manage to manipulate the stock upgrade system, that could be done (my idea A)
<xShadowx>
basicly we insulted ckan, which branched out eventually into ideas about everything ksp :P
<stratochief>
athough my current conception of how RP- works (idea B) feels like it provides value for returning to a body. or, later tech unlocks giving new experiments would be incentive to return
<pap1723>
My other thought was to completely eliminate how the science is gathered currently, no one really enjoys the wack-a-mole way it works now. Here is what I propose...Science parts are still included in the game, but they provide no science. Contracts provide all the science. So let's talk about the first interplanetary mission...Flyby Mars and on your ship you must have a Therm, Barom, Orbital Pertub on board. Once you accomplish your
<pap1723>
mission, you get the equivalent science data that you would have gotten if you were wack-a-moleing (or pretty close at least)
<pap1723>
sorry for wall of text
<stratochief>
Pap1723: that was Agathorn's conception behind RealScience. doing that just takes a lot of work to code and conceptualize/gamify
<stratochief>
no wait, I said that before reading all our text :P
<stratochief>
right now, if a contract is buggy (or you read it wrong, and land in the 'wrong' biome on the Moon or Mars), at least you can get the science
<xShadowx>
contracts repeat though, and you just sift through to get endless 'fly probe over this biome with a camera' for the camera you sent to moon
<xShadowx>
current wack-a-mole science atleast limits how many times you can count the grains of sand in the desert
<regex>
Just need a mod that autocollects the science for you
<TwistedMinds>
And I'm not sure I like the idea how making 'failed' mission totally worthless. Sometimes I just overshoot my destination but can salvage something from the launch at least.
<Agathorn>
yeah you are basically describing RealScience :D
<Agathorn>
you should pick it up and continue where I left off
<pap1723>
Am I really?
<pap1723>
I don't know any of the coding aspects of it
<Agathorn>
I even documented where I wanted it to go
<xShadowx>
my only real problem with science atm, is it costs science, should cost $ and/or time to get techs ;3
<pap1723>
At least not for another semester or two
<TwistedMinds>
xShadowx, maybe cut all science gain by ±half, and pay to analize the other half in the KSC? Just thinking out loud here :p
<TwistedMinds>
analyze*
<TwistedMinds>
meh, the delayed/timed research in RP-0 does exactly that, forget about it
<xShadowx>
im a fan of ditching KSC (using parts / lab etc in foreground as the game) while RP-0 is the whole bqckground support crew style :P
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<xShadowx>
so cassini in saturn orbit - why is mission set to end in sept? like any reason probe will die at that date? or just thats whats scheduled but life could go on
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<rsparkyc>
probably running out of fuel to stay in orbit
<Olympic1>
RE: Cassini. They made the decision to deorbit it because its running out of fuel and they decided for a cooperation on lowering space debris.
<Olympic1>
and afaik also because they feared it would crash into Enceladus or an other moon
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<Starwaster>
Olympic1 the concern for Enceladus and Europa was the possiblity of life existing there and we don't want to contaminate it
<TwistedMinds>
We'd risk being flagged as biological warfarer by the Krikkiters, or being called daddy in a couple thousand years. We don't want that to happen.
<stratochief|away>
Starwaster: who-y whaty?
<xShadowx>
TwistedMinds: speak for yourself, i wouldnt mind fathering a race, atleast they'd have genetics for high IQ ;p
<TwistedMinds>
imagine the child support cost though
<xShadowx>
is no cost after im dead :P
<xShadowx>
and they gotta prove it was me too
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<Starwaster>
actually I think it's just titanium oxide paint, sorry.
<xShadowx>
now if they made laws like north korea, where several generations of your family are also guilty, that could turn to a sticky issue
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<pap1723>
I just talked with the creator of Bluedog Design Bureau and he agreed to give his science experiment models to me to use as part of the base package of Realism Overhaul
<Olympic1>
nice
<pap1723>
I thought it would be nice to have "real" cameras and micrometeorite detector
<pap1723>
I'll work on implementing that stuff down the road
<Starwaster>
stratochief|away ok so the deal with the paint is that I'm experimenting with using its thermal properties for tanks
<xShadowx>
sidenote - just need MM cfg to delete all part configs, and write your own from scratch, then works when mod installed, rather than include models themselves into RO ;3
<xShadowx>
BDB is purty parts :D
<stratochief|away>
Starwaster: any real effect of the paint, other than whatever the emissive properties are?
<Starwaster>
ok so you've probably heard or been taught that emission and absorption are tied to each other, right? very highly absorptive materials are very highly emissive?
<Starwaster>
it's actually on a per wavelength basis
<Starwaster>
that is it varies by wavelength. And unless something is over 500 K, it's not going to be emitting in the visible spectrum. So we really only care about emission in the infrared
<Starwaster>
the deal about titanium oxide is that it is has an absorption of 0.20 and an emissivity of 0.90
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<Sigma88>
is kopernicus 1.2.2-5 compatible with KSP 1.2.2.1622 ?
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<ThisDay>
April 27: Dinner Party, the first successful silo launch of the Titan II, occurs in 1963. In 1967, the USSR launches an investigation into the cause of the Soyuz I failure in 1967. Apollo 16 splashes down in the Pacific Ocean in 1972.