<acc>
stratochief: ah, alright. I installed krash, but havn't realized it's for simulation. I thought it's the deform parts on crash thingy :D
<soundnfury>
isn't that krassh? or something like that?
<acc>
btw PF... where are the fairing sides without a decoupler? can't find them in my parts list
<acc>
soundnfury: maybe both? duno. first time I installed krash heh
<acc>
havn't seen deformed parts yet
<soundnfury>
acc: I've never installed either, so... v0v
<acc>
we'll see what it is
<soundnfury>
and, I think they used to be in structural and they've now moved to payload like the other fairings
<soundnfury>
(if you mean "Interstage Fairing (Conic)" and friends, that is)
<acc>
yeah, the fairings that can't be decoupled
<acc>
but can't see them. are they not unlocked from start?
<soundnfury>
dunno
<soundnfury>
thought they were...
<acc>
oh, there they are
<soundnfury>
there are some fairings that aren't, though
<acc>
was just blind
<soundnfury>
like (iirc) the Atlas and Delta fairings
<soundnfury>
oh good
<soundnfury>
that happens sometimes :/
<acc>
yeah, so much parts...
<acc>
s/much/many/
<Qboid>
acc meant to say: yeah, so many parts...
<soundnfury>
such parts, so fairing, very rockets
<acc>
;>
<acc>
but so far... after I got the MJ PID under control it runs all fine
<acc>
a tiny lag here and there and some clouds/scatterer glitchiness
<acc>
but nothing drama-worthy
<stratochief>
acc: there are definitely fairing sides w/o decouplers, they fuck me up aaallllll the time
<stratochief>
I just wish they either A. didn't exist, or B. were labelled "Stratochief, don't use these"
<pap1723>
Interstage fairings are my kryptonite
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<taniwha>
stratochief: I always come this -><- close to using them myself
<stratochief>
Pap1723: I enjoy using the interstage fairings, makes the craft look nice and tidy IMO
<pap1723>
I do too stratochief I just always seem to mess them up
<stratochief>
I'd like to use the interstage fairing to make the sexy boat tail like some people do, but my game crawls as it is without adding 3-10 more procparts to a craft
<pap1723>
That is why I use SSTU so much very pretty and very low number of parts
<stratochief>
Pap1723: yeah; attaching the part above to the wrong node, my guess? I generally raise the attachment node for the interstage fairing, attach it to the part above, and only then adjust it to make the gaps shorter
<stratochief>
Pap1723: yeah. but SSTU still needs lots of tweaks and configging to really sing with RO/Rp-0, and I put enough time into that over a year ago. someone else can pick up where joseeduardo and I left off
<pap1723>
What are the issues with it? I have been using it and it seems really nice so far, but I am willing to modify as I go (as I did by creating the RD-180 config today)
<stratochief>
someone was asking about SSTU in here earlier today, but i missed the question
<stratochief>
Pap1723: confirm that the prices/masses are similar enough to proc-tanks. follow the issue where engine clusters price wrong and ensure it gets fixed, configure the diameter unlocks so they are similar to how procparts are configured with RP-0, etc, etc,
<stratochief>
plenty of parts to be prices and placed for Rp-0 still, IIRC. and the lander parts could use another pass, we made them bahave somewhat like Altair, but they could be better
<pap1723>
gotcha
<pap1723>
Well, I am getting ready to launch my Apollo 4 with SSTU parts once I fix my staging, only costs 190,661!
<stratochief>
and there are always niggly little odd bits that need tweaking or polish to work or look just right. for example, I don't remember how the RCS parts built into the upper stage tanks ended up. I tried to make them work auto-nicely with RF and be configurable, but I forget how they ended up
<stratochief>
Pap1723: that... sounds expensive? I really don't have a memory for what various accomplishments tends to cost me in RP-0
<pap1723>
That was without fuel. Apollo 4 with no LM is 210,923 for me
<stratochief>
last time I checked, SSTU didn't allow for finetuning of the heights of parts; it had sort of 'snap' sizes for tanks like 4m, 8m, etc.
<pap1723>
It snaps sorta vertically, but then you can use VScale to fine tune
<stratochief>
fucking regex hasn't shown up in the past few days so that I can rave to him about how much they have changed Factorio 0.15, so he shoud play it :P
<stratochief>
ahh, gotcha Pap1723
<pap1723>
I am trying to avoid getting back into Factorio for a little, can't get sucked in like that right now!
<acc>
stratochief: heh. yeah, can be tricky to pick the right fairings :D
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<acc>
ok, found an issue with MJ. it does weird rcs forward bursts
<acc>
(throttle at 0)
<stratochief>
acc: if you want to chase that dragon, you can try to reproduce it with stock/the simplest install you can make it occur in. if you can write out instructions of how to reproduce the issue, it would be worth making an Issue on the Mechjeb repo
<acc>
hadn't had that on my other modded install. seems like related to RO
<acc>
and it weirdly stops when i disable the main engine on that stage
<stratochief>
acc: for what it's worth, I've heard other peopple mention that issue before. reproducing issues with mechjeb is notoriously difficult
<pap1723>
stratochief, tell me if I am completely off base, but there should not be limitations on sizes of Fuel Tanks forced by the tech tree
<pap1723>
Where you are at in your program as well as funds and the engines available will force the sizes you can use anyway
<stratochief>
acc: interesting. does it come back once you toggle it back on? do you have RO/RSS special handing mode on? see if the issue occurs with and/or without that on
<acc>
yes and yes
<stratochief>
Pap1723: there are limitations yes, and there should be. it is to represent the gradual technology driven advances in tank fabrication. it also helps to discourage new players from making big, fat, short rockets instead of real looking ones :)
<acc>
and somehow MJ does ignore the "enable SAS on warp" option
<stratochief>
Pap1723: and engines can be clustered, so the size of engines doesn't really limit anything. the VAB size does have some impact, holding people back from making uber-rockets early on
<stratochief>
acc: maybe persistent rotation related? it does things with SAS and timewarp as well
<acc>
could be, I'll check
<acc>
usually I put that option on because of PR
<stratochief>
Pap1723: I know RO/RP-0 isn't intended to be "recreation overhaul", but an interesting fact that led the US to go with Saturn V diametre rockets instead of Nova (wider) was a lack of tank fabrication hardware or facilities that would be able to make tanks that large
<acc>
hm, no PR has no option like that
<stratochief>
Pap1723: Michoud could make Saturn V sized tanks, but only laying on their sides :)
<stratochief>
anyway, off to sleep
<stratochief>
acc: I was suggesting uninstalling PR, to see if it related in that manner
<acc>
and when I enable SAS manually and go to warp it stays on
<acc>
ah, yeah. worth trying
<acc>
gute nacht stratosleep
<stratosleep>
acc: Bis spater :)
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<xShadowx>
o/
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<pap1723>
o/ NathanKell|AFK
<xShadowx>
too slow :P
<pap1723>
lol
<lamont>
successful launch of Mercury-Atlas 1 carrying Jebediah Kerman into orbit around Earth
<lamont>
okay well slightly suborbital 125 km periapsis because i haven’t launched anything in RSS in months and months
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] PhineasFreak opened pull request #1613: STAR 37 TestFlight config (master...RO-STAR-37-TestFlight) https://git.io/v9nTR
<github>
[RealismOverhaul] PhineasFreak opened pull request #1614: STAR 37E SRM global engine config (master...RO-STAR-37E-Global-Config) https://git.io/v9nk1
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<Aepelzen>
hey guys
<Aepelzen>
i'm planning a mars mission,are there any mods that add cryogenic tanks without boiloff?
<Aepelzen>
probably providing active cooling using electricity or smth. like that
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<riocrokite>
most people sleep this time, you might need to wait a bit for the answer ;)
<riocrokite>
'at this time
<Aepelzen>
no hurry, i have to figure out some other problems in the meantime ^^
<pap1723>
Aepelzen, I think CryoEngines does something like that in stock
<Aepelzen>
Pap1723: yes, it does, it doesn't work for RO though
<Aepelzen>
but that's basically what i'm looking for
<gazpachian>
Aepelzen: https://github.com/Starwaster/HeatPump - he's been ironing out bugs here in chat for a while, not sure of the current status for the repo to be honest
<gazpachian>
since the last push seems to be a month ago I suspect he hasn't pushed the fixes he's been talking about. If I recall you'd be fine as long as you use the radiators with double symmetry, but that's just from the top of my head without having tried it myself!
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<Aepelzen>
gazpachian: i've heard of that, but i was under the impression that it does not really stop boiloff (from forum discussions), at least for liquid hydrogen
<Aepelzen>
i will have a look though, thx for the info
<Aepelzen>
i have to run, will be back later
<gazpachian>
afaik it's SUPPOSED to, but may not in it's current status
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<rsparkyc>
!last blowfish
<rsparkyc>
!seen blowfish
<Qboid>
rsparkyc: I last saw blowfish on [27.04.2017 02:29:08] in #RO saying: "something's off, this shouldn't really be sensitive to being slightly out of plane"
<stratosleep>
only 120 dollars ; that really isn't too bad
<Agathorn>
yeah people keep telling me how stupidly expensive lego sets are
<Agathorn>
but that seems resonable for this to me
<stratochief>
absolutely. I agree that most of the lego sets are overpriced. but then again, most lego sets don't result in something cool I'd keep around my house as a display
<gazpachian>
well, that's much cheaper than other big collectibles they've released afaik
<stratochief>
lol. the "So, you've stolen one of the two remaining Saturn V's" starter kit?
<rsparkyc>
lol
<rsparkyc>
keep your heist running like the day it was built
<stratochief>
possible National Treasure sequal?
<Agathorn>
wish more of these space books were available as kindle books
<rsparkyc>
that would be sweet
<acc>
hey stratochief :)
<stratochief>
won't PDFs open on a Kindle? they open on my e-reader (Sony)
<UmbralRaptor>
The Kindle software opens PDFs on android. O_o
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<UmbralRaptor>
Okay, only sorta.
* UmbralRaptor
?
<Agathorn>
stratochief: sure but my point was most of these books are only available in hardcover
<Agathorn>
I just prefer being able to buy them in Kindle format because its so much more convenient. Instan gratification, and no need for a bookshelf :D
<stratochief>
I suppose I'm more willing to indulge my closer to mainstream interests. I can get like 90%+ of what I read from a library, and if I can't, I'll buy what I want, and donate it to the library when I'm done with it
<Agathorn>
freak
<stratochief>
then, someone else can get it from the library :)
<Agathorn>
I hoard books
<Agathorn>
I don't give them up
<Agathorn>
once upon a time I had an entire room full of shelves, but the ole digital age set me free!
<TwistedMinds>
awww but you dont get to smell the fresh heavenly smell of the book :/
<Agathorn>
don't get me wrong.. I do like physical books
<stratochief>
I hoard nothing, I have broken myself of hoarding tendancies. well, exception being digital, where my 'hoards' only fill 1 pound HDDs
<Agathorn>
they just aren't as practicle for me anymore
<pap1723>
strat
<stratochief>
do you know what I do when I want the heavenly scent of books? I visit the library, or friends with hoarding tendancies :)
<Agathorn>
I move a lot, and I can't be lugging hundreds of pounds of books
<pap1723>
stratochief, where are the RealPlume configs stored for RO configs for engines?
<stratochief>
Agathorn: I find it hard to believe you are are a young hoarder in Vancouver proper. you're appt must be Cramped
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<Agathorn>
stratochief: It is pretty cramped - not too bad though since i've given up most of my physical books :D now a days its mostly computer stuff
<stratochief>
Pap1723: I think you'll figure it out, take a quick skim :P
<stratochief>
ideally, you can think of RO as a sane software development project. if you think "well, hopefully the realplumes are stored and labelled somewhere logically" check for that, and hopefully you'll find it
<pap1723>
one last question...The Service Module for Apollo from SSTU has a config for a Real Plume, but in game, the engine glows as it is on, but there is no plume, easy fix?
<stratochief>
same goes with documentation. ideally, a Wiki will already exist. if not, we should probably create one
<stratochief>
or is the SM the 190? I don't remember. anyway, start by checking whether a config already exists, see if there is anything obviously different in A. how it attaches to a part in the code, or B. how it is configured (compared to one that works)
<stratochief>
and looking at that SmokeScreen dialog in game like my vidja shows should give you some insight about whether the plume is not attached at all, or is generating zero particles, or whatever
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<pap1723>
o/ HypergolicSkunk
<HypergolicSkunk>
hey Pap1723 o/ weeeeeekend :)
<pap1723>
NICE!
<HypergolicSkunk>
the question is ... does it make more sense to continue with my own tech-tree, or is there anything I can help you with?
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<pap1723>
HypergolicSkunk, are you creating new nodes and everything, or just arranging your stuff where you want it?
<HypergolicSkunk>
Pap1723: I was trying the tool you linked for me, but I cannot get it to load its own saves. so I started just moving single parts into more or less sensical nodes
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<pap1723>
I see HypergolicSkunk , I have actually been working on restructuring nodes and parts for my HPTech Tree to use with RP-0 for personal use
<pap1723>
Hey regex , stratochief|away wanted to bug you about playing Factorio again
<schnobs>
OK, so I say you need either smaller sepratrons or more G tolerance on the early equipment.
<schnobs>
dang, will the tiny tim even work anymore?
<pap1723>
schnobs, I have found that using the G-limit part setting in the game wasn't working with my RO install.
<pap1723>
I tried launching Explorer 1 and the final Baby Sergeant had too much acceleration and the Explorer 1 exploded from overloaded G-Forces
<schnobs>
hold on while I quit to main menu.
<schnobs>
default setting for Part G-Force limits is OFF.
<pap1723>
I had no issues with the Tiny Tim, it worked exactly how intended for me. It is only a 0.6 second burn
<schnobs>
This is not a stock KSP thing. RO had g-limits before, by way of Deadly Reentry I think.
<Agathorn>
What is wrong with tiny tim?
<schnobs>
I know that I occasionally lost a capsule on reentry.
<schnobs>
Agathorn: two small sepratrons as ullage&spin motors on an aerobee will destroy it with excessive acceleration.
<Agathorn>
well don't use them?
<schnobs>
TinyTim below would give three times as many Gs... but I haven't tried it yet.
<TwistedMinds>
one of my rocket got wrecked by g-force this morning, although it was an extreme situation. i can say g force limit worked in this situation at least
<schnobs>
Agathorn: well use what?
<Agathorn>
For spin, use angled fins
<Agathorn>
IIRC a recreation aerobee would push right to the edge of accerlation limits
<schnobs>
~realism~ strikes again.
<Agathorn>
I tended to stage Tiny Tim first then the aerobee right at burnout
<Agathorn>
though I think realistically they were both fired at once
<gazpachian>
also, the difference between ignition and burnout for the tiny tim is rather academic
<acc>
how I missed building "real" rockets <3
<schnobs>
Last time (1.1.3) I had to come up with insane contraptions. Otherwise TinyTim burnout would shake up the propellant in the tank. Vapor In fuel lines.
<TwistedMinds>
acc, pretty new to ro/rp-0, and there is no way I go back to vanilla. Ro/Rp-0 is brutal and so much more fun
<schnobs>
So Instead of a single tiny tim I had a cluster of sepratrons with slightly different burn times, to phase them out gently.
<schnobs>
All in the name of ~realism~ of course.
<acc>
TwistedMinds: heh. and going back to stock size solar system feels very weird
<Starwaster>
goddamn google keeps telling me braeunig.us is unsafe
<schnobs>
Though in that case I can understand why there is trouble.
<acc>
everything is so small and OP all the vehicles
<pap1723>
Agathorn, I staged both at once for the Aerobee and it worked great
<Agathorn>
yeah I think that is how it really flew
<Agathorn>
I just didn't like it :) So I staged Tiny Tim, then took a breath then staged the sep and Aerobee and usually worked out ok
<Agathorn>
though timing was critical because if not perfect you culd get some wobble
<schnobs>
As far as I'm concerned, the most weird thing about stock is how you basically have to zoom off sideways, atmosphere be damned.
<pap1723>
schnobs, use the fins slightly angled at 1 or 2 degrees to give the spin stabilization for the Aerobee and also V-2 when you launch it
<pap1723>
for sure Agathorn
<Agathorn>
most weird thing about stock is stock :D
<pap1723>
Stock uses "physics"
<pap1723>
RO uses Physics
<Agathorn>
its the same physics
<Agathorn>
unless you are using Principia
<schnobs>
Pap1723: pretty much everything that's "physics" is because of the small world.
<Agathorn>
I give Squad a lot moreleeway with the compromises they made now that I am strugglgin with some of the same problems in my own game
<Agathorn>
Making real world scale is HARD
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<schnobs>
Agathorn: what do you mean?
<pap1723>
yeah, and actually learning about the sheer sizes used in Real Life and how computers use floating point numbers, things get tricky really fast
<pap1723>
I also do not think that KSP is as successful as it is if the launches all take 10 minutes to get into orbit. Most people are not willing to do that over and over again
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<Agathorn>
Go into Unity and make a sphere with a scale of 6371000, then place a 1m cube on the edge of it -- see how far you get :)
<Agathorn>
I'm just talking about technical limitations
<TwistedMinds>
Pap1723, if KSP was as complex as RO/RP-0, I wouldn't have picked it
<Agathorn>
handling such vast sizes is hard
<Agathorn>
I'm having to deal with multiple cameras (suprise just like KSP did) but I still refuse to shrink my planet
<Agathorn>
I have more freedom though since th player can't directly control the rockets
<pap1723>
Here is the best way I have heard of the scale described by Neil De Grasse Tyson
<pap1723>
A regular classroom globe...
<pap1723>
The space that the Space Station operates in and all of LEO is only 3/8 of an inch or about one cm above it
<pap1723>
For visualization purposes, that is incredibly effective to me
<Agathorn>
First time I saw it, it absolutely blew my mind
<TwistedMinds>
why is the moon so big
<TwistedMinds>
oh nevermind
<HypergolicSkunk>
do you guys think that a VR-camera-setup with two cameras next to each other (typical eye-to-eye-distance) would still give you a noticeable stereoscopic effect when looking at Earth from an orbit comparable to the ISS in altitude?
<Agathorn>
no it wont
<pap1723>
yeah Agathorn that is a really good one as well
<Agathorn>
just look at the earth from an airliner and you will see you have virtually no stereoscopic effect other large mountains giving parallx
<Agathorn>
perception of depth drops off very fast
<HypergolicSkunk>
but there's also the atmosphere
<pap1723>
I also like that since it has been discovered, classed as a planet and declassified as a planet, Pluto has not even completed 1 year
<HypergolicSkunk>
very high clouds
<HypergolicSkunk>
Pap1723: Neptune's seasons are bloody 40 years long :P
<pap1723>
It was either Neptune or Uranus that JUST finished it's first orbit since we discovered it as well
<pap1723>
It really is unfathomable how large everything is
<HypergolicSkunk>
Neptune, iirc
<schnobs>
For matters of Earth-Moon scale, Tenns and Basket ball work nicely.
<TwistedMinds>
Pap1723, heh. What's mind-boggling to me is how small planets/bodies are compared to... the space between, and yet some are the size I cannot really comprehend
<schnobs>
Now put them both to the ground and roll the basket ball about nine rotations away.
<Agathorn>
there is one infomap now that I can't remember where I Saw it.. but damnit I have to find it
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<pap1723>
Agathorn, is it the one where you scroll for 20 minutes horizaontally to see the distance between planets if the moon is one pixel?
<schnobs>
Crash into earth from below, or unlocking "in space around the sun" while blowing up, or whatever.
<Agathorn>
"All of US History has occured within a single Pluto Orbit"
<schnobs>
All kinds of weird stuff and I start to wonder if it's really just a g-force thing.
<xShadowx>
yes the microgravity forces earthlings experience from jupiter caused the US to be born
<schnobs>
okay, using a single sepratron I managed to build a vessel that won't blow up.
<schnobs>
It won't come down either, keeps going up.... and up.... and up at about 65m/s.
<schnobs>
won't happen if I use a tiny tim for the same purpose.
<TwistedMinds>
oh, your rocket starts floating up slowly once the physics settle down after loading?
<schnobs>
nope.
<schnobs>
rocket is tied to a launch clap until I go.
<schnobs>
which is probably a good long while after loading physics.
<schnobs>
I had a few un-clamped rockets that didn't float either.
<schnobs>
So what happens that it accelerates to 60m/s and never slows down.
<schnobs>
.
<schnobs>
the previous models, the ones that blew up, also had their trouble near sepratron burnout.
<schnobs>
What I guess I'm trying to say: I have kinda-sorta repeatable trouble with small, sepratron-powered rockets. Would be nice if someone could try to replicate.
<schnobs>
My rocket is a bio sample cylinder, sounding core and parachute. Weird things happen when I try to use sepratrons for propulsion.
<TwistedMinds>
I have, what I think, a pretty good ro/rp-0 setup right now. once it finish loading i'll build it to see if i see something weird
<TwistedMinds>
I got the floating-up-rocket-after-load happens to me 2 or 3 times, not sure what fixed it since I reinstalled from scratch after that. but nothing with ship exploding for no reasons.. hmm
<TwistedMinds>
sounding core is the "Sounding Rocket Telemetry Unit" ?, and which parachutes did you use? :)
<pap1723>
Agathorn, that image you linked is awesome
<stratochief|away>
!tell schnobs interesting how you went do the Goldberg line to solve that problem, I staged TinyTim and Aerobee at the same time, never had that problem. I guess I lucked out in trying that before getting creative :)
<Qboid>
stratochief|away: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<stratochief|away>
!tell schnobs we can't really attempt to replicate your findings when you haven't described your install
<Qboid>
stratochief|away: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<stratochief>
Pluto was inside Neptune's orbit for a not insubstantial portion of my youth
<stratochief>
Pap1723: I think that route (regarding the tech tree) is a good one. basically, adapting your historical progression tree to RP-0 as an alternative for now. then it can be added to and tested parallel to current RP-0, rather than us fighting and debating you about every variation as you go along
<stratochief>
Pap1723: like we would have to if you were suggesting the changes directly into the RP-0 tree. then, we get to see and tweak the whole thing before considering replacing the current RP-0 tree with a substantially different one
<rsparkyc>
i really want someone to make a contract for me to put a solar observer in Earth-Sun L1
<rsparkyc>
and then maintain it
<rsparkyc>
(maintain its orbit)
<pap1723>
Didn't you create something similar already rsparkyc ?
<pap1723>
stratochief, sounds good
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: isn't your Principia contract testing fairly close to that? 'just' gotta adjust the bodies, and the numbers to reflect Earth-Sun L1 instead of Kerbin-Mun L1 or Earth-Moon L1
<rsparkyc>
yeah, i have mod that SUPPORTS it, but haven't actually made a balanced contract
<rsparkyc>
and don't feel like doing the research to figure out what the payouts should be
<rsparkyc>
and what requirements should you have met before it's available
<rsparkyc>
but that's just because i'm feeling lazy right now
<rsparkyc>
I'm thinking that if PrincipiaContracts is listed as a supported mod, ContractConfigurator will kick out any contracts we put in RP-0 that work with it if the user doesn't have PrincipiaContracts installed
<rsparkyc>
so that's good
<rsparkyc>
I'd like some other people to play with it though to see if it works for them or needs improvements
<rsparkyc>
i was actually tempted to bake the code to handle those contracts in RP-0, but wanted people to use it that didn't have RP-0 installed
<stratochief>
well, the mission doesn't require any special parts, so determining a fair payout shouldn't be too painful. I don't recall if we have a standard cost+ style payout standard. but, for example, if actually accomplishing the mission you described takes 10,000 credits, then the payout could be 200% that, or 20,000 credits. some other 'firsts' contracts are more of a pain, because the cost cosnideration has to include the cost of unlocking new parts to
<stratochief>
accomplish it
<stratochief>
like, the cost of unlocking landing legs goes into the payout for a lunar probe or lunar crew landing mission, that sort of thing
<rsparkyc>
yeah, should it just be available once you've done a moon flyby?
<rsparkyc>
maybe i'll bite the bullet and just do them :)
<pap1723>
rsparkyc, I would think it would be later
<rsparkyc>
Pap1723, when would you suggest?
<pap1723>
The nice thing about the Contracts is that you can do one of these...
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: that seems reasonable; or possibly after accomplishing GEO? since getting to -and- staying in the L1 would require good RCS control experience?
<rsparkyc>
yeah, staying there should be very little deltaV
<pap1723>
CONTRACT_TYPE:NEEDS[PrincipiaContracts]
<pap1723>
Then it won't even show for others
<rsparkyc>
oh, i didn't know you could do that
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: I don't intend to touch PrincipiaContracts until RO actually has a release. but I certainly find it appealing and worth doing
<rsparkyc>
that's fair
<rsparkyc>
i should get an RP-0 set up with principia
<rsparkyc>
all my principia testing has been mostly stock
<pap1723>
rsparkyc, I can look at creating some contracts for it, but it won't be until later, most likely much later
<rsparkyc>
yeah, totally fair
<rsparkyc>
i'll see if i can't make some basic ones on a branch for you to monkey with
<rsparkyc>
then add balancing later
<stratochief>
rsparkyc: simply carrying out the mission you're proposing and seeing what minimum tech you require to do it, what it costs, how long it takes will be a long way to determining fair values for the Contract that will be made
<pap1723>
I just got into playing RO, jumping into RO and Principia sounds like a challenge for down the road for me
<stratochief>
Pap1723: once you've done a planetary flyby, I'd suggest at least giving Principia a try, even just in stock like I am
<stratochief>
Pap1723: does after completing a GEO contract seem reasonable for hitting Sun-Earth L1?
<stratochief>
I love the idea of tiered/progressive contracts. so the first Sun-Earth L1 contract could simply ask you to pass through that region, rather than stay there for a long time
<stratochief>
or, the first polar contract allowing a sloppy polar orbit, simply above 80 degrees and outside the atmosphere, then later ones requiring more skill and precision
<pap1723>
I think that it should be at least GEO, the first L1 mission was not until ISEE-3 in 1982
<rsparkyc>
yeah, and passthrough (as well as precision) are easily implemented with what i've built
<pap1723>
The fun thing with Principia is that simple contracts become much more intriguing...For example, put a satellite in orbit and maintain a tolerance of a certain altitude for 120 days becomes a realistic mission
<HypergolicSkunk>
but are you then going to do that contract alone until completion, or do several contracts simultaneously which makes you run the risk of forgetting about that mission? :p
<rsparkyc>
use KAC
<HypergolicSkunk>
that won't warn you about decaying orbits
<HypergolicSkunk>
unless you add your own alarms manually
<xShadowx>
decaying orbits mod needs to tie into kac :P
<rsparkyc>
i think orbital decay is really only as issue with eccentric orbits
<rsparkyc>
LEO is pretty stable IIRC
<rsparkyc>
i think the main issue with the ISS is atmospheric drag
<rsparkyc>
but i may be wrong
<HypergolicSkunk>
that doesnt make much sense though, because if an orbit is eccentric, the occasional dive into the atmosphere will barely affect the periapsis, and have more effect on the apoapsis
<HypergolicSkunk>
oh wait
<HypergolicSkunk>
never mind
<rsparkyc>
it's not the atmosphere, it's that the fact that it gets close to the moon
<HypergolicSkunk>
I am mixing up orbital decay and orbital pertubations
<rsparkyc>
ahh, yeah
<HypergolicSkunk>
:)
<xShadowx>
contrary to popular belief, space is indeed not empty
<pap1723>
Ah, Principia does not take atmospheric drag into account?
<xShadowx>
no clue
<regex>
I don't believe it does
<HypergolicSkunk>
so it would be logical to use Orbital Decay with Principia?
<soundnfury>
HypergolicSkunk: FSVO "logical", yes
<xShadowx>
uhhhh if even compatible o.O
<regex>
If Orbital Decay works by altering the orbit, probably not because Principia handles that. If it removes orbital energy then it probably will.
<regex>
That is, if it handles the decay by applying forces to the craft rather than simply adjusting the orbit.
<HypergolicSkunk>
okay
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<rsparkyc>
yeah, i think principia would overwrite orbital decay values
<stratochief|AFK>
HypergolicSkunk: No. They both modify gravity, and are incompatible as egg has previously said
<HypergolicSkunk>
ah. good to know, stratochief|AFK :)
<stratochief|AFK>
also, Orbital Decay does a terrible job calculating atmospheric drag effects for elliptical orbit
<stratochief|AFK>
regex: play Factorio 0.15 ; they changed a ton. entirely different material paths for research beakers, for one
<stratochief|AFK>
regex: hell, play for just an hour, see if you agree
<pap1723>
regex
<pap1723>
there is no such thing as playing Factorio for an hour, lol
<regex>
One sec
<stratochief|AFK>
the new factorio is available through Betas on Steam
<regex>
Yeah, I'm not touching it again until 0.16
<regex>
but I've been following the dev blogs religiously
<regex>
I'm very exciting for the new railway handling and the options for different map layouts for resources. I prefer an approach closer to the Marathon mod.
<regex>
Since I love playing with model trains
<regex>
^very excited
<regex>
fuck, that sounds weird
<pap1723>
regex have you played with Resource Spawning Overhula mod?
<regex>
Yeah, that's what I mean
<regex>
The last few games I played through I used that, love it.
<pap1723>
yeah, that mod is pretty awesome
<regex>
makes trains much more usable.
<regex>
and necessary
<stratochief|AFK>
there is a "Marathon" default map spawn/rule set option available in 0.15 ; that is what I'm playing with now
<regex>
I saw that in the dev blog, super happy about it.
<regex>
the new science stuff as well.
<stratochief|AFK>
regex: what are you playing now that is filling your time?
<regex>
Minecraft. Playing FTB: IE Expert. It's a pretty involved, long-term, automation-encouraging playthrough.
<regex>
You have to automate Wither spawning/killing because you need /that many/ Nether Stars.
<regex>
been quite fun.
<stratochief|AFK>
I've spent less than 50 hours playing Minecraft or modded minecraft, so I don't really understand any of that :P
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<regex>
it's cool. :)
<regex>
it's like playing Bob's Mods in Factorio. Lots of crunchy details, lots of different automation and processes to go through.
<pap1723>
stratochief|AFK, HypergolicSkunk , regex , how does this look for years for my tech tree? https://pastebin.com/qjm48Xi1
<HypergolicSkunk>
ver' is ze Germany 1944! :D
<HypergolicSkunk>
looks great to me though. also the fact that the early years are 'denser' than later years
<pap1723>
Obviously ze Germans have ze parts from ze start
<regex>
What do you expect wikll show up in these nodes?TIER 122031-2050
<regex>
TIER 132050+
<regex>
god damnit...
<regex>
anyway
<xShadowx>
stratochief|AFK: MC is pretty much goto a server, place blocks, throw tantrum when admin bans you for makin lag machines, repeat :P not much to understand
<rsparkyc>
teleportation
<rsparkyc>
10000000000 science points
<regex>
seems legit
<Thomas>
xShadowx: Unless you have your own server
<HypergolicSkunk>
Helium-3 powered fusion?
<pap1723>
nothing really, but they will exist for Near Future things if working on RO down the line
<pap1723>
lol
<regex>
What are your criteria for moving to a new tier? The breakpoints?
<regex>
That makes sense
<pap1723>
regex, why did I choose those years?
<xShadowx>
Thomas: in which case you better know how to fix bugs in java :D
<regex>
Yes.
<stratochief|AFK>
Pap1723: I think that is fairly similar to what we have now. a couple technologies become issues of debate, as they are near the boundaries, but that is a natural problem
<Thomas>
xShadowx: I expect java to work, and if not, I delete the server :P
<xShadowx>
Thomas: so you just skipped to step 3 every time? ;3
<regex>
Yeah, edge cases gonna edge case no matter what you do.
<Thomas>
xShadowx: No, I never had problems with java
<regex>
Hey
<regex>
I got an idea
<xShadowx>
after running an MC server with 300+ mods for 8 years, i had plenty :|
<regex>
can we split engine paths by fuel types?
<regex>
that would be rad
<pap1723>
regex, this is a comparison of what I had used for HP Tech Tree, I had very specific break points as you can probably tell
<pap1723>
I wanted more differentiation with the RP-0 years since there are so many more parts and small additions, maybe it is too much?
<regex>
I don't see any real problems with that personally, they seem to fall in logical places.
<regex>
Nah
<pap1723>
ok
<regex>
RO/RP-0 is KSP's "crunchy details" mod. You don't install it without that understanding
<pap1723>
regex, what are the different types of engines.....Hypergolic, Cryogenic, Solid, Nuclear?
<regex>
Nuclear would probably be better described as "thermal"
<regex>
Also electric
<regex>
but I wasn't being super serious, was just fantasizing about having an RD-270M before an RD-107/108
<pap1723>
So my tree now is this...Rocketry, Jet Engines, Fuel Tanks, Aerodynamics, Engineering, Flight Control, Crew Support, Science, Electronics
<pap1723>
I was thinking of making it this instead...Upper Stage Engines & Fuel Tanks, Lower Stage Engines & Fuel Tanks, Jet/Plane Engines, Aerodynamics, Engineering, Flight Control, Crew Support, Science, Electronics
<pap1723>
Is it worth it to split out Upper and Lower?
<regex>
Not for fuel tanks
<regex>
IMO
<regex>
Are we dealing with slosh baffles and mass shifting? If not, splitting fuel tanks off from general structural upgrades doesn't make much sense to me.
<regex>
Engineering, I think, right?
<regex>
Although having the tank types be their own line would be cool, especially if you can skip over some tiers.
<stratochief|AFK>
lower and upper stage tanks are pretty similar from a gameplay perspective. lower tanks are generally the mass/volume ratio they are, because of a need for strength. uppers are similar because they need insulation, not strength. ultra-light tanks like centaur have little insulation, so can't hold cryogens in orbit for long
<regex>
Like Cryo Balloon is a late-game development, correct?
<pap1723>
So separate the upper and lower engines and group fuel tanks in with Engineering?
<pap1723>
Engineering will become "Material Science"
<regex>
But again, you may want to consider tank type unlocking to be its own line.
<pap1723>
Materials Science
<regex>
but I like that
<regex>
Lifters and Sustainers
<stratochief|AFK>
acc: nice :) I'll watch that
<acc>
:)
<stratochief|AFK>
the big problem of making many sub-branches of technologies (like different tank tech, or different branches per fuel) is nicely dealing with cross-unlock, or related tech.
<acc>
but no regular episodes until I get a new mic. no-comment is boring :D
<stratochief|AFK>
for example, the RS-25 relies on the development of explicitely upper stage engines in the RL-10 and J-2, then developing additional tech including high chamber pressure hydrolox, re-usable engines
<acc>
repaired my mic, but now it sounds like under water
<stratochief|AFK>
acc: fair enough. old mic died?
<stratochief|AFK>
ahh
<pap1723>
Ah, yes so Rocketry will now stay as only one group
<pap1723>
makes sense
<pap1723>
So I will not change the tree at all as far as the grouping, I will just modify the tiers
<stratochief|AFK>
Niemand303 boop. weren't you discussing tech tree improvements a while ago? you may have input, and be interested in helping Pap1723?
<stratochief|AFK>
IIRC, Niemand is a german, I'm not sure what time it is there. evening-ish?
<pap1723>
Is there a spreadsheet of parts in RO / RP-0, or is it all pretty much done ad hoc?
<pap1723>
If it is ad-hoc, I will create a main one as I will need to use it for part tracking
<acc>
stratochief|AFK: 22:30
<stratochief|AFK>
Pap1723: not sure what properties or info you'd expect in such a spreadsheet. the RP-0 tree.yaml tells a lot
<pap1723>
yeah, that is what I have been using
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<stratochief|AFK>
Pap1723: yeah, please create a new spreadsheet if you'd find it useful. Will you be managing your tech tree concepts & changes in a seperate repo for now?