NathanKell changed the topic of #RO to: Welcome to the discussion channel for the Realism Overhaul (meta)mod for KSP! Realism Overhaul Main Thread https://goo.gl/wH7Dzb ! RO Spreadsheet http://goo.gl/Oem3g0 ! Code of Conduct http://goo.gl/wOSv2M ! | [15:01] <soundnfury> Straight Eight Stronk (and) RP-0/1 is basically "Space Agency Spreadsheet Simulator" with a rocket-flying minigame
<Starman4308> My greatest foes attempting to create a kOS script for landing on Phobos/Deimos are RCS overcorrections and sheer, overwhelming boredom.
<Bornholio_> lower RCS thrust and balance using RCS build aid
<Bornholio_> for isntance , Mercury pod at full, bounces all over on renetry, uses all HTP Quickly, at 25% it settles into nice gentle retrograde and barely uses any HT{
<Starman4308> I've fixed the RCS overcorrections for the most part, and the boredom has been solved by using reverse RCS to accelerate me to -15 m/sec until I get close.
<Starman4308> (kOS has a mechanism to multiply the RCS output for its cooked steering)
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<lamont> heh i barely use the docking autopilot normally with MJ
<lamont> but the whole maneuver node system doesn’t interface with principia well, and trying to use osculating orbits for hitting 200m targets from half an orbit away in principa is going to fail because of physics and stuff…
<egg> lamont: but now you have an endpoint! :D
<lamont> also “congratulations you have been made a developer of the principia functionality port of mechjeb!”
<lamont> i do
<lamont> i should play with the damn thing now
<egg> lamont: eggsactly
<lamont> Clifford?
<egg> lamont: also I like that you use RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK etc. correctly
<egg> lamont: ?
<egg> lamont: the release that will include your endpoint is Coxeter
<lamont> ah so master?
<lamont> “at first i was but a learner, now i am on the master branch…”
<lamont> egg: i made progress at two-point-boundary-value-problems
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<lamont> and it turns out matlab has a levenburg-marquardt solver as a choice for fsolve() implementation and that code runs fine with it, and alglib that is already in mechjeb has an L-M optimizer
<lamont> and i’ve got C# code for rkf45 kicking around
<lamont> so put it together and weld it to mechjeb and we get proper grown-up trajectory optimization
<Bornholio_> .cheer
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<egg> so you'd need the integration of some slightly odd ODE for that?
<egg> and I guess some sort of metric to optimize on the trajectory?
<lamont> yeah that’s what that does
<lamont> you’ve got a normal initial value ODE problem that the integrator deals with — but you know only half your starting conditions and half your ending conditions (ish) and you have metric to optimize
<egg> lamont: yeah but I guess at least the integration and metric computation should be done in principia
<lamont> then mumble mumble pontrayagin mumble weirstrauss-erdman corner conditions mumble mumble and you can turn the TPBVP into a root finding problem
<egg> that's a good spec
<egg> I like it
<egg> lamont: can you specify your ODE in a way that doesn't require reading too much matlab in stackoverflow though
<lamont> yeah i need to play with it more
<egg> (also your metric ideally, though that's likely reference-frame dependent in some fancy way that needs to be generalized for principia fanciness
<egg> )
<lamont> typically you optimize time, or final mass
<lamont> you can also minimize the integral of the dV over the burn
<lamont> but those should be reference frame independent
<lamont> i see green tests on master
<lamont> the suborbital hop problem is probably solvable via similar techniques but the end condtions, transversality conditions and the metric is going to be different...
<lamont> that’s the problem of trying to completely burn a rocket that won’t make it to orbit but deliver it to, say 150km with maximum velocity
<lamont> i see the usual red tests
<egg> lamont: uh, surely you're also optimizing towards some target trajectory?
<lamont> the rest of the parameters can be entirely free if you don’t care about inclination / LAN / etc. you’re just trying to deliver a rocket to 150km with as much horizontal velocity as possible.
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<egg> lamont: I mean for optimizing to a trajectory (which I thought was the goal with that fancy optimizer? how else am I going to get MJ to eggsecute my weak stability boundary transfers :-p)
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<awang> Anyone want to try out a 1.4.1 TF dll?
<awang> I need to see whether 1.4.1 DLLs compiled on mac work on Windows
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<lamont> yeah but final alt = 150km and velocity = max actually will select a particular best trajectory. you can certainly specify all 6 keplerian elements and do the equivalent of an intercept (*cough* docking autopilot *cough* hohmann transfer *cough*)
<lamont> that is actually much easier
<lamont> no transversality conditions
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<awang> Bornholio: Got a link to the 1.4.1 golden spreadsheet?
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<SpecimenSpiff> o/
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<soundnfury> awang: yes I'm on linux (Debian to be specific)
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<egg> lamont: yes, but I mean for the general case you don't want to guide to a Keplerian orbit
<egg> lamont: e.g. WSB transfers
<egg> lamont: so you'd have to have a way to compute the residual wrt to a trajectory in a chosen reference frame
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<schnobs> o/
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<schnobs> Hmmm. So we carefully align our space centers so the runway points due east, the rotate all rockets by 90 degrees.
<schnobs> Heretic thought: why not make it so that rockets go east by default?
<schnobs> Bornholio: no rest for the wicked.
<schnobs> (off to work, bbl)
<Bornholio> that also
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<Bornholio> awang added three mods to the 1.4 list
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<awang> Bornholio: Alright, thanks
<awang> I'll see what I can get recompiled
<awang> Also, does anyone mind testing a TF dll?
<awang> Just to see if it works, no need to actually play with it
<awang> soundnfury: I was going to ask whether you had extra Unity DLLs, but it seems Sarbian already did that
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<acharles> awang: I can test it on a fresh 141 install on windows if you give me a zip
<awang> Thank you!
<awang> Sorry it took me so long, I was away from the computer
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<acharles> awang: That’s the log
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<BadRocketsCo> o/
<Qboid> BadRocketsCo: awang left a message for you in #RO [14.03.2018 12:32:42]: "For gravity assists, there's the KSP Trajectory Optimization Tool. Technically not a mod though"
<BadRocketsCo> Oh yeah. That's what I thought of
<awang> acharles: Thanks!
<awang> That tells me that things compiled on mac will *not* work on Windows
<awang> :(
<awang> Seems Unity is looking for the mac-specific modules
<awang> egg: ^
<Mike`> theres also flyby finder, BadRocketsCo
<awang> Sarbian: ^
<awang> Assuming I didn't screw things up, at least
<awang> I find it odd that there doesn't appear to be any references to the split DLLs on the forums
<awang> At least through google
<egg> awang: ow
<egg> awang: but the reverse is fine, right?
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<schnobs> o/
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<Probus> o/
<schnobs> Procedural Spaceplane Tank seems a bit off.
<schnobs> a) it has size limits
<schnobs> (said limits refer to techs that no longer exist)
<schnobs> b) utilization defaults to 86 and can be cranked up to 100.
<schnobs> I know how to deal with a), no clue about b).
<schnobs> also, repost because weekand and possibly a new audience:
<schnobs> a quick drop-in patch
<schnobs> Adds an engine that uses LS resources, making it easier to define custom service modules.
<schnobs> ah, found the bit about utilization.
<schnobs> What should the Spaceplane tank be based on?
<awang> egg: Unless I messed something up, yes
<awang> I'm going to try again
<awang> Because I want to be sure it's actually something with KSP/Unity/etc
<awang> Anyone here browse the modder section of the forums regularly?
<schnobs> ...hardly ever.
<awang> brb, sorry
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<Starman4308> So, I have found a way to describe why what I'm doing is a hard problem to computer scientists.
<Starman4308> One of the things I work on is an iterating O(n^4*k^6) algorithm.
<Starman4308> Necessary input to this is an O(n^3) matrix of energy terms.
<Starman4308> Each element of this O(n^3) matrix requires O(n^2) time to compute, rendering that whole part O(n^5).
<Starman4308> The light at the end of this tunnel may not be salvation, but rather an exponential-time train hurtling down the tracks.
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<Probus> Does it not bother anybody that the rocket is on fire half way up the 1st stage: https://youtu.be/eNnDR1p3Gww
<schnobs> Starman4308: all I can say is that if that's how it is, then you have to put in the CPU cycles.
<schnobs> A lot can happen overnight, though.
<schnobs> Probus: #paintsonfire
<SpecimenSpiff> Meh, its just hydrogen, nothing bad has ever happened because of burning hydrogen
<schnobs> pure hydrogen burns with a blue-ish, nearly invisible flame.
<Probus> That is definitely reddish orange.
<schnobs> Mere presence of something else could do that, however...
<Probus> It must be impurities in the air.
<schnobs> See how it keeps burning for a few seconds after liftoff, apparently being blown out by the draft?
<schnobs> That's definitly some solid material attached to the rocket.
<schnobs> Paint on the cable shaft was my first guess.
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<schnobs> Regarding relative visibility of hydrogen flame, check the same video at ~6:50
<soundnfury> schnobs: I believe some of the insulation burns away amid the hydrogen flame
<schnobs> it's from whatever you call those tubes / pipes / wawa running down the length of the tank.
<schnobs> doesn't catch fire at 10:00 min.