NathanKell changed the topic of #RO to: Welcome to the discussion channel for the Realism Overhaul (meta)mod for KSP! Realism Overhaul Main Thread https://goo.gl/wH7Dzb ! RO Spreadsheet http://goo.gl/Oem3g0 ! Code of Conduct http://goo.gl/wOSv2M ! | [15:01] <soundnfury> Straight Eight Stronk (and) RP-0/1 is basically "Space Agency Spreadsheet Simulator" with a rocket-flying minigame
<Rokker>
Bornholio: Pap Probus NathanKell|AFK holy shit
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<Rokker>
probus_: holy shit
<Bornholio>
holy what?
<Rokker>
I just visited Pima
<Rokker>
it was glorious
<Bornholio>
cool
<Rokker>
Bornholio: I saw 52-0003
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<Rokker>
oldest surviving B-52
<Rokker>
Bornholio: and they were doing heritage flight certification next door so I saw an F-16, F-22, F-35, F-86, P-40, P-51 and A-10 flying and doing tricks in the period of like 3 hours
<Bornholio>
nice
<Bornholio>
do they have it flight worthy, on just "restored"
<Bornholio>
An event celebrating the 70th Anniversary of the USAF and 100th Anniversary of the Royal Air Force (RAF).
<Bornholio>
Saturday, April 7, 2018
<Bornholio>
Don't Miss the Flyover at 10 a.m.!
<Bornholio>
10 am - 2 pm
<Rokker>
Bornholio: not even restored
<Rokker>
they were busy re-restoring it
<Bornholio>
good deal, so many poor shattered buffs in the desert
<Rokker>
Bornholio: I saw a number of aircraft I'd never seen before as well
<Rokker>
like a nuke pooper
<Rokker>
aka the A-5
<Bornholio>
well yes, that one is "inovative"
<Bornholio>
I mean i always say its best to shoot nuclear bombs out of your butt
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<Rokker>
Bornholio: saw my first Tarhe/Slycrane
<Rokker>
Skycrane
<Bornholio>
you know, didn't happen unless you have pics
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<Rokker>
Bornholio: imgur doesn't let me upload albums larger than 50
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<schnobs>
o/
<ProjectThoth>
I'm surprised that nobody's considering resurrecting Project Pluto/SLAM for planetary exploration missions.
<schnobs>
ProjectThoth: having tried something alonge these lines in stock, I'd like to point out that one needs a suitable atmosphere first.
<ProjectThoth>
schnobs: Of course. It'd only be really useful on Venus or an extended atmospheric survey of one of the gas giants.
<schnobs>
Duna too thin, Eve too hot... IRL, you'd need to wory about the atmo composition as well.
<schnobs>
Venus ought to be pretty abrasive from what I gather, on Titan you'd probably have coky gunk clogging up teh works.
<schnobs>
Re: gas giants, there was at least one What If outlining that you get little lift out of the upper atmosphere, and too much pressure below.
<schnobs>
In fact, humans on Titan could fly by muscle power. A human in a hang glider could comfortably take off and cruise around powered by oversized swim-flipper boots—or even take off by flapping artificial wings.
<ProjectThoth>
I just like the idea of riding a plume of radioactive death For Science (TM).
<schnobs>
who doesn't?
<schnobs>
(who doesn't like the idea, I mean. I'm much less enthusiastic about actually doing it, y'know)
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<soundnfury>
I have a suggestion for a new family of contracts (I think Pap is our contracts guru?)
<soundnfury>
in the same way we have Comm and Weather sats (and their own Payloads), perhaps we should have Navigation Satellite contracts and a NavSatPayload resource
<soundnfury>
basically because the Weather and Comm sat contracts aren't quite enough to keep a decent build pipeline full sometimes (and you can't build a rocket 'on spec' unless you look up the contract's max payload and use that)
<schnobs>
What would distinguish comm from nav?
<schnobs>
Modern day nav basically means a precision timer plus broadcasting.
<soundnfury>
well, comm sats are doing more complicated transponder things
<soundnfury>
(maybe even store-and-forward in some cases)
<schnobs>
Way back when... it would probably have been an artificial star to shoot, no more or less.
<schnobs>
Practical in daylight or under cloud cover, no doubt.
<soundnfury>
whereas Transit was just a frequency-stable transmitter that repeatedly sent out ephemeris data (stored in magnetic core memory, periodically updated from ground stations)
<soundnfury>
receivers used the Doppler shift from the satellite's motion to determine position
<soundnfury>
basically I just want more things to launch in that 'dead area' when you've orbited the Moon but can't do landers or capsules yet. When I can put up a Thor-Agena every fortnight, I need something for them to carry ;)
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<schnobs>
soundfury: just timewarp?
<leudaimon>
soundnfury comm payload could work with that, no? as long as you make a contract asking for different orbit parameters than the test comm sat
<leudaimon>
(I'm in this same area, waiting for proper probes, orbital 1958 and flight control before going for moon landing)
<schnobs>
What's the reasoning behind Crew Training, by the way?
<schnobs>
Apart from yet another clumsy interface, I wonder why I have to deal with this shit, like, at all.
<schnobs>
We're getting down to middle managment here.
<schnobs>
Not to mention the HR claptrap.
<soundnfury>
leudaimon: I suppose so. But is there a reason _not_ to have a Nav payload resource?
<leudaimon>
I don't think so... I just think these different payload types are kind of generic, you could have a simple payload resource, unless there is reason to give them different densities
<soundnfury>
Hmm.
<schnobs>
soundnfury: it's the contract what matters, telling you to put a satellite to such-and-such an orbit.
<leudaimon>
yeah, changing the payload demand later if/when it gets created is quite easy
<schnobs>
Something I declined to do so far, by the way. Solid last stages are a PITA to plan for, and without restarts on the uppers...
<schnobs>
For the snapshotting contracts, how close do you need to get to the target area?
<leudaimon>
I found a bug in those contracts
<soundnfury>
schnobs: I think those are broken, yeah
<leudaimon>
whenever you launch anything the 24h timer starts ticking and the contract fails
<soundnfury>
I've never been able to complete the earth observation contracts, no matter how closely I overfly the target
<soundnfury>
I suspect that CC's distance parameters are just buggy
<soundnfury>
(either that or there are some undocumented requirements to make them work)
<leudaimon>
the sad thing about this is that when I found the bug the weather satellite I had launched and trigged the counter overflew the area, but I didn't have a camera
* schnobs
checks contract
<schnobs>
It says horizontalDistance = 100000
<schnobs>
That means if you're dead-on, you have about 12 seconds to take the picture -- provided it even works as designed.
<soundnfury>
schnobs: I don't think you have to actually take the picture while over the target (!)
<soundnfury>
you just have to overfly the target and, separately, recover a photo of _something_
<schnobs>
Hm. the experiment you have to recover or transmit is "mobileMaterialsLab"
<taniwha>
schnobs: 12 seconds is a surprisingly long time
<schnobs>
Isn't that the scienceJr?
<schnobs>
That is, the 100kg moving picture camera, which cannot transmit?
<schnobs>
Just btw, I only see one "photography" experiment, the science Jr. All others are "imaging" (in-game terminology), supposed to represent CCDs or whatever they had to record TV images back then.
<leudaimon>
yeah, I think it's this experiment schnobs but by the way the contract is built, I would guess you can transmit it
<schnobs>
The contract allows for transmission, but experiment doesn't.
<schnobs>
Not that you can prevent the player from hitting the "transmit" button, but.
<schnobs>
I haven't tried recently, but way back when it was still the keyhole camera, the data size was so large that transmission would take upwards of an hour.
<leudaimon>
well, given the same experiment is transmitable by other more advanced parts, I would guess it's possible to complete the contract by transmiting
<schnobs>
leudaimon: beware.
<schnobs>
I haven't checked the configs, but in_game it's "photography" and "imaging" -- two distinct experiments.
<leudaimon>
yeah, but the one corresponding to mobileMaterialsLab is the "photography" one, which also has several levels
<schnobs>
where?
<schnobs>
I only see that one part for photography... can it be upgraded?
<schnobs>
Mike`: Well, in principle it could be no worse than slightly annoying... if anyone had given the UI side more than cursory consideration.
<Mike`>
errros and exceptions
<schnobs>
You need to train a person for a cockpit before she can use it. That's proficiency training, takes a while to perform, and will wear off after a few years.
<schnobs>
You also need to do mission training just before launch. Doesn't take that long, but wears off quickly.
<schnobs>
The interface is not too dissimilar from the KCT build or science queues, but without any "timewarp to" buttons or KAC integration.
<Mike`>
i see
<schnobs>
Timewarp alone would help a big deal.
<Mike`>
yep
<schnobs>
But frankly, "see to it that we have a warm body to put into the cockpit at launch time" is nothing I want to bother with at that level of detail.
<Mike`>
yep, a difficulty switch to turn that off (plus maybe just turn off mission training) would be cool aswell
<schnobs>
I get the point: you can't just put anyone anywhere on short notice and expect them to perform well. That's a simple truth.
<schnobs>
But.... (shakes head). Nah. Not like this.
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<Probus>
You guys have probably already had this discussion, but the new EULA is not going to affect RO, is it?
<Probus>
Also, Are any of the new features in 1.4 going to be useful to RO?
<taniwha>
Probus: new EULA?
<schnobs>
Squad is changing the license terms, apparently to be in line with the rest of take2.
<taniwha>
details?
<Probus>
Let me find it...
<schnobs>
Me no lawyer, and IMO you need one for an informed discussion.
<Probus>
I'm with schnobs, but it looks innocent enough. Heh heh.
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<schnobs>
Basically, they try to reserve all rights and then some. Which is not unusual.
<schnobs>
I guess in the end the main question is: do you expect them to abuse you?
<taniwha>
the only worrying bit is about RE, but that's nothing new (and actually not really enforceable due to interop (unless things have changed))
<schnobs>
Not sure who's messing with my vessel.... help required.
<schnobs>
Winged cockpit on top of a rocket.
<schnobs>
a most minimalistic dyna-soar.
<schnobs>
On ascent, control surfaces are getting in the way.
<schnobs>
If I tweak them down in VAB and try to activate them later, symmetry is gone:
<schnobs>
I have to tweak left&right side individually down to the same decimal point.
<soundnfury>
schnobs: try just tweaking Ctrl Deflect?
<soundnfury>
bringing that up to 100% doesn't need much accuracy :)
<schnobs>
hrmpf. Should help for the day, but who's breaking symmetry?
<schnobs>
I'll never figure out the mass-strength slider.
<schnobs>
Or why tempereture limits are the way they are.
<Starwaster>
because temperature limits are scaled for absolute destruction with no in-between option for failure
<schnobs>
415K...? That's plywood-and-cloth. Not even.
<Starwaster>
what's 415K? why do you think that's plywood and cloth?
<schnobs>
Inital wings are good up to 415 Kelvin.
<Starwaster>
the shuttle's aluminum skin and frame could not go above about 450K or it would become dangerously weakened
<Starwaster>
even though it's actual melting temperature was much higher
<soundnfury>
Probus: if I'm not mistaken, that's new Ts & Cs for the forum and other online gubbins, not a change to the software license.
<Bornholio>
snoobs fixed, dmagic is optional, magicore is needed regardless
<Qboid>
Bornholio: schnobs left a message for you in #RO [03.03.2018 10:18:08]: "the spreadsheet lists MagiCore but doesn't mention DMagic Orbital Science."
<schnobs>
Bornholio: Thanks.
<soundnfury>
schnobs: IIRC changes are only propagated to symmetry counterparts in the editor, not in flight
<soundnfury>
same goes for Actuation Toggles on RCS, for instance
<schnobs>
soundnfury: in stock, symmetry still works in flight. Sometimes I hate it.
<schnobs>
The individualisation has to come from something in the RP-0 suite. Far? Real fuels? No clue.
<Bornholio>
rokker excuses! make two albums, and you can make then add more
<schnobs>
After struggling with all kinds of control issues for a while, I'd like to once more express my gratitude for control delay, and how it has thrown all PID controllers off balance.
<taniwha>
man, KSP landing legs are skis :P
<taniwha>
wrong channel, but still :P
<schnobs>
It *is* realistic that control surfaces need time to move, and engines need time to swivel. Still, I can't say that it has improved the gameplay experience.
<Bornholio>
lot KSP dir is ice
<Bornholio>
dirt
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<taniwha>
actually, I think it's poorly configured landing legs
<taniwha>
yeah, setting legs' frictionMultiplier to 2 did the trick
<taniwha>
though, tbh, a 20 degree slope is pretty steep
<Bornholio>
with a RCS Based lunar lander i can use it as a rover scooting around on my RCS nozzles by using Kill Rot in SmartASS and using the side RCS to move waypoint to waypoint, like i'm on ice :P
<taniwha>
frictionAdherent = 0.5 in landingLegLT-2.cfg works nicely
<taniwha>
at least for this slope on Mun
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<Maxsimal>
schnobs: Why are you even playing this mod pack? You seem to dislike simulationism - there are other mod packs like SMURFF you could play if you hate building queues, obessesive detail, etc.
<soundnfury>
^ +
<schnobs>
Maxsimal: there is an "ism" in simulationism.
<schnobs>
It's not that I disagree with the idea of tooling. Or that Astronauts need training. Or that rockets need time to be built.
<schnobs>
But could you just take a step back and have a look at this mess?
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<Maxsimal>
O.o Yeah I think you have the wrong attitude if you're looking at an amateur mod pack with this much content, that's still being worked on before it's pushed out, and calling it a mess. Most of your gripes are minor details, and now you're acting like the whole thing is a problem
<schnobs>
it is.
<Mike`>
schnobs, it's time for you to get starting to mod and redesign our UIs, make them all pretty etc :D
<Qboid>
Pap: schnobs left a message for you in #RO [03.03.2018 08:47:35]: "Keyhole? Lunar Orbiter?"
<schnobs>
Pap: never mind, I've missed out on DMagic parts.
<Bornholio>
just getting to flying a couple manned today, not sure if anyone has looked at it
<Pap>
schnobs: I wound up seeing that in back chat. Good news
<schnobs>
though I'm a bit surprised at Corona massing 60kg...
<soundnfury>
the volumes and masses of those cameras really don't feel like they match...
<Bornholio>
its hard to seperate the avionics and camera masses but i think the source pap had did a good job IIRC
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<BadRocketsCo>
Howdy!
<schnobs>
I don't have sources handy, either, but some back-of-the-envelope calculations... I'd expect the glassware alone to be in the tens of kilograms.
<soundnfury>
'sup BRCo
<BadRocketsCo>
I just managed to create a 8.9t orbital launcher
<BadRocketsCo>
6.9kg probe into LEO
<schnobs>
And if anyone ever comes across some figures for film stock, I'd be most curious.
<soundnfury>
what engines?
<BadRocketsCo>
Aerobee JR
<BadRocketsCo>
The ones from Raidernick's US rockets
<BadRocketsCo>
6 of those
<BadRocketsCo>
And 2x of the atlas...ugh, what're they called...the tiny engines on the sides for maneuevering
<Bornholio>
lr101
<BadRocketsCo>
Yup, those
<BadRocketsCo>
And second stage is the 2kn engine pack
<Starwaster>
if a part has multiple models, does only one of those determine the part's origin? Or is it averaged?
<BadRocketsCo>
With some extra fuels
<BadRocketsCo>
Fuel*
<blowfish>
Starwaster: the part's origin is fixed, models are placed relative to it
<blowfish>
if you don't specify a position for a particular model then that model's origin will be at the part's origin
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<schnobs>
Example of being too smart by a half:
<schnobs>
Early proc avionics easily come out to less than 60kg.
<schnobs>
Goodbye sounding rocket thingy, welcome fully-controlled last stage!
<schnobs>
It even goes to the moon...
<schnobs>
...consuming upper stage power all the way.
<soundnfury>
well yes, early proc avionics are considerably higher tech than the SR core
<schnobs>
It would only require about 500kg of batteries to keep the lights on until it gets there.
<Bornholio>
restarting electronics is a very iffy thing, takes higher tech, those should be on a TLI stage not a Orbital insertion stage
<schnobs>
What else, besides Agena, could even hibernate?
<Bornholio>
lots of the lunar stuff have varoius work arounds like motor heaters and secondary hydralic circuits with low viscosicty fluids but keeping the lights on is the safest. Even new horizons almost didn't wake up
<schnobs>
repeat question, does anyone have an X-15 based orbiter to show around?
<Bornholio>
sure.
<schnobs>
Whatever I try turns out excessively nose-heavy.
<schnobs>
not quite what I was looking for, but yeah :)
<Bornholio>
you mean forward :P yeah right, that "Very Gentle" does not exist
<Bornholio>
even like this one it needs a pretty deep shadow to keep the heat off the sidewalls
<schnobs>
hold on. The reason I'm asking is that I can't make a wing thing that won't lawn-dart. But you sound as if even the most gentle entry would be too hot?
<Bornholio>
nothing i've tried worked
<Bornholio>
maybe heat is up too high on hard
<Bornholio>
make sure you don't use the fuel volume in it and use the FAR tools its not hard to get a reentry with overheating turned off
<schnobs>
Well, erm, that ferry rocket thing I made comes back nicely from 2000km. Surface temp remains <1200K. From LEO and with great care, 1000K seem doable.
<schnobs>
That was RSS+FAR, but without DR (not sure if or what that would change).
<schnobs>
I'd not have expected trouble with a much smaller and lighter plane.
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<ProjectThoth>
soundnfury: Oh, this is gold.
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