NathanKell changed the topic of #RO to: Welcome to the discussion channel for the Realism Overhaul (meta)mod for KSP! Realism Overhaul Main Thread https://goo.gl/wH7Dzb ! RO Spreadsheet http://goo.gl/Oem3g0 ! Code of Conduct http://goo.gl/wOSv2M ! | [15:01] <soundnfury> Straight Eight Stronk (and) RP-0/1 is basically "Space Agency Spreadsheet Simulator" with a rocket-flying minigame
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<awang>
Man I forgot that stock rockets have high liftoff TWR
<awang>
"Why is my speed increasing so fast?"
<awang>
"Oh, TWR of 2."
<schnobs>
meanwhile, I'm trying to get 20t to ~8500m/s.
<schnobs>
That's way above Titan but a good deal short of Saturn-1, right?
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<schnobs>
Uncluttering has been in the game since 1.0, methinks (mostly clearing clamps from the pad)
<schnobs>
Aseroid Spawner running every so often is nothing I've seen before, but it has to happen every once in a while.
<awang>
No, the map rotation
<awang>
Watch the orbits
<schnobs>
Forest and trees... I didn't even notice. No, never seen *that* before.
<awang>
Should have been open to a different tab to avoid the distractions
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<Starman4308>
schnobs We're starting to also put in the GPU cycles for the O(n^5) algorithm of maximal doom. Also, I thought Saturn 1 was pretty close to 20 tons to LEO?
<schnobs>
Starman4308: Re Saturn, that's how I remember it as well.
<Starman4308>
Wikipedia suggests the Saturn 1B has an LEO payload of 21 tonnes. I think my "Saturn 1" has a smidge more than that, thanks to a beefier, F-1A+4xH-1 powered first stage.
<awang>
Starman4308: What in the world are you working on that is O(n^5) and O(n^4*k^6)?!
<awang>
For your sake, I hope I'm parsing it right as O((n^4) * (n^6))
<awang>
Not O(n^(4 * (k^6)))
<schnobs>
Six H-1 around a LR105 upper almost get there. At the price of briefly hitting 7g...
<schnobs>
Or five H1, plus six-and-three castors.
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<ProjectThoth>
Urgh, none of my ships fly right in 1.4.
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<ProjectThoth>
Are wheels glitchier than usual?
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<KevinStarwaster>
am I the only one who thinks landing legs are overpriced...?
<Starman4308>
awang It's O((n^4)*(k^6)), where k is fortunately relatively small (usually 10, max of 35). Specifically, it's pairs Dead End/Goldstein elimination under many-body potentials... and it's the O(n^3) energy matrix that's usually the limiting step.
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<schnobs>
o/
<Starman4308>
Hello!
<schnobs>
Computations still running?
<schnobs>
Seriously, can you tell me what you're trying to do?
<Starman4308>
Repacking protein structures, specifically their side chains.
* schnobs
has faint memories of his chemistry lessons, hydrogen bonds and stuff being all tangled up
<Starman4308>
Evaluating energy using a force field is O(n^2), though if you can use PME (I can't due to technical details), it's O(n*ln(n))
<Starman4308>
And then there's the matter of "okay, we have an estimate of the energy... now which packing out of the roughly 10^n is the right one?"
<schnobs>
Sounds like one of the fields that progresses with the availability of processing power.
<KevinStarwaster>
ok so seriously: landing legs.... landing gear in general.... overpriced or no? I don't see much if any balancing of landing leg prices in RO so landing legs are hundreds of thousands or even up into the millions of dollars...
<schnobs>
First off, RO or RP-0?
<schnobs>
RO is supposed to be sandbox only. Parts are set up for mass, size, properties, but not cost.
<schnobs>
It's sandbox, after all, so what do I care about the price of things (makes farting noise).
<KevinStarwaster>
ah I have probably not ever looked at costs in RP0 for legs... good point about the sandbox thing I guess I'm only really thinking career mode
<schnobs>
For career mode in RO, you really want RP-0. It makes no sense otherwise.
<KevinStarwaster>
well I'm running a bastardized installation right now so my prices are probably screwed up on some things
<KevinStarwaster>
and it just hit me that I was paying like 4 million (adjusted) for a Falcon 9 landing leg and I'm like even if that includes construction and launch costs I'm like... just no.
<schnobs>
Might not even be wrong. I heard the fairing sides come to 5million -- it's totally worth it to send a ship after them and pick them up.
<KevinStarwaster>
schnobs but is that actual construction/fabrication cost or could that just be an estimated breakdown including construction AND launch?
<KevinStarwaster>
and can you cite some sources? preferably some that might give insight on other components?
<schnobs>
sorry, now. I was complaining about tooling cost and someone posted a link about SpaceX fairing recovery at me. The 5m figure was in that article, given as quote from musk. Can't recall if it was 5m apiece or for both together.
<Bornholio>
My guys got to see the autoclave for those a couple weeks ago.
<schnobs>
Bornholio: If I want to submit patches agains RP-0 dev, how do i go about it?
<schnobs>
Not too familiar with how git works. Usually patches require me to make a new branch... can that be a sub-branch of dev?
<schnobs>
Are sub-branches even a thing?
<Bornholio>
if its an existing file that needs edits, the easiest way make a fork, edit the file then submit pr to merge fork
<schnobs>
fork != branch?
<Bornholio>
you can also single edit and submit pr from the file in master/branch directly
<Bornholio>
IF you have folders and more structure or compiling to do then talk with awang or kevin
<schnobs>
Yeah, most of my PRs are edited and submitted on the github website because it sorts these things out for me.... but going beyond one-liners and typo fixes, that will no longer work.
<awang>
Starman4308: Oh nice, protein folding
<awang>
How related is your work to Folding@Home?
<awang>
(hopefully you don't get that question a ton)
<awang>
schnobs: Fork -> copy of entire repo
<awang>
Branch -> one line of development in a repo
<awang>
Approximately
<KevinStarwaster>
schnobs, Elon himself said they cost that much.... and it sounds like that is pure construction cost.... I think. he said 'each one of those'... but yeah that could be for the whole fairing or for one half
<awang>
You fork the repo to get your own copy that you can write to
<awang>
Do your work on your own copy
<awang>
Then use GitHub's cross-fork PR thing to open a PR
<schnobs>
So if change into dev, fork that, and can be sure that my PRs will apply to dev (and be commingled with master)?
<schnobs>
*not*
<Bornholio>
if you fork you do the whole thing, you modify and pr to specific branches
<Bornholio>
master being a branch
<schnobs>
OK, thanks.
<awang>
^
<awang>
There isn't anything special about the master/dev branches, technically
<awang>
They're just like any other branch
<awang>
Just treated specially by convention
<Bornholio>
what key puts my controlled tonnage display back up in VAB
<schnobs>
It's in the RP-0 "f" menu.
<schnobs>
(there's hotkeys?)
<Bornholio>
ah it got stuffed in there .sigh
<Bornholio>
used to be a key
<schnobs>
Being stuffed in there is much better than four seperate items. What bothers me is the lack of alerts, but meanwhile I've gotten used to checking it myself.
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<KevinStarwaster>
Module Manager: Can % be used with nodes such as MODULE? i.e. %MODULE[some-module-name]
<schnobs>
yes.
<schnobs>
% is insert-or-replace?
<schnobs>
what yre you tring to do?
<Starman4308>
awang Basically unrelated. They're a different lab looking at different questions, such as: protein folding. We're more into clinical variant analysis and hopefully protein/drug design.
<schnobs>
What do I need to make GEO, again? 2400m/s to get AP, 1700m/s to circularize?
<schnobs>
Does that already account for inclination change from KSC?
<Bornholio>
no
<Bornholio>
from zero inclination 250m parking orbit 2440+1472, strange tricks to get the inclination change and circ to combine but the optimal dv sharing would be no better than 70%ish
<Bornholio>
NK has a few goot GEO runs up right now on twitch
<schnobs>
OK, I'll account for 2600+1800. Let's see how it goes.
<Bornholio>
A hop over is how the soviets/russians do it
<schnobs>
?
<Bornholio>
go extra high, then inclination change way up to lower the cost
<schnobs>
Ah, yes.
<schnobs>
From KSC I usually take a more direct route: shave off a few degrees during gta, then fix it at AP.
<Bornholio>
combine a partial circ with your inclination change at AN
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: yeah, I'm planning to use bi-elliptic/supersynchronous for my Alaskan campaign
<schnobs>
Is there a way to get dV from RCS?
<soundnfury>
schnobs: Isp g₀ ln(m/m₀)
<schnobs>
Yeah, thanks.
* soundnfury
usually uses Google calculator (when I don't want to make a konrad json file, that is)
<schnobs>
RCS build aid is supposed to do it, but doesn't seem to want to.
<schnobs>
I seriously wonder if I should even bother with a "proper" satellite.
<schnobs>
By the time I have the ranger panels, upper stages are low-power enough.
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<schnobs>
And as the upper stage has to come along for nearly all of the way in any event... why even bother with putting a satellite on top?
<Bornholio>
you can make much earlier and lighter vehucles using RCS
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<awang>
Starman4308: Ah, makes sense
<soundnfury>
Bornholio: yup, tiny proc core and a 34N thruster, you can do amazing things as long as you've got the patience for ten-minute burns :)
<Bornholio>
I'm trying a mars lander built on a mercury nose cap :P
<soundnfury>
... wat
<Bornholio>
needed a small heat shield, landing pad
<Bornholio>
drag should be monstrous on it
<Bornholio>
but if it flips....
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<soundnfury>
!tell schnobs it's not an 'f', it's a £. And a spanner.
<Qboid>
soundnfury: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Bornholio>
'cause brit
<soundnfury>
yup.
<soundnfury>
fun fact, brits don't need the "warp to morning" button...
<soundnfury>
'cos the sun never sets on the british empire ;)
<Bornholio>
thanks to that island with the pedo's
<soundnfury>
btw, that apostrophe shouldn't be there
<soundnfury>
unless you intended a possessive
<Bornholio>
challenging an engineer's gramar is pretty easy
<soundnfury>
"gramar"?
<Bornholio>
I'm lucky not to misspell 90% of the words :)
<Bornholio>
regardless or center/centre crap
<Bornholio>
of
<soundnfury>
hey, at least you didn't ir- that regardless. There's still hope for you :)
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<Bornholio>
https://imgur.com/a/ppluU something in it generates phantom forces sending it spinning after dropping my begining MLI stage
<Bornholio>
and its the star37, crum gonna miss this mars window
<Bornholio>
Astris needs a plume fix
<Starman4308>
Dangit, I need to launch this channel in an actual IRC client: the default web client doesn't beep at me at all if there are messages.
<Starman4308>
Also, grr... the Centaur avionics make this Centaur-alike upper stage look much cleaner and mass relatively light, but the avionics package makes the cost balloon...
<Starman4308>
Yaaaay procedurals! Stopped mucking about with the "upper stage" configs and went for a booster config... and huh, I actually managed to reduce cost by reducing the size of it.
<Starman4308>
At 9.3% utilization, apparently you get some weird effects.
<Bornholio>
yeah at super low its weird, also wasteful
<Bornholio>
i like quassel for IRC
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<soundnfury>
Bornholio: I like quIRC, but I'm biased ;)
<Starman4308>
There we go! Took a bit of wrangling, but I figured out Quassel. I forget which client i used a couple years ago, but hopefully this at least beeps at me.
<Starman4308>
Um, is there a way to get this client to make a small noise when there's a message?
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<Bornholio>
windows notification
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<Starman4308>
Anybody know a thing about Firefly Aerospace? I just read an article on them test-firing their upper-stage engine, and basically all I know about them now is that they're Yet Another Prospective Newspace Lightweight Satellite Launcher.
<Starman4308>
Gotta get that into a decent acronym, really. "Yet Another New Lightweight Orbital Company"?
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<Starman4308>
Ooh, ooh, "Fun-size Rockets Ascending with Undersized Deliveries"! Granted, while I'm not sure there's the market people think there will be (nevermind ridesharing on larger rockets), there's probably going to be at least one clutch of disappointed venture capitalists.