NathanKell changed the topic of #RO to: Welcome to the discussion channel for the Realism Overhaul (meta)mod for KSP! Realism Overhaul Main Thread https://goo.gl/wH7Dzb ! RO Spreadsheet http://goo.gl/Oem3g0 ! Code of Conduct http://goo.gl/wOSv2M ! | [15:01] <soundnfury> Straight Eight Stronk (and) RP-0/1 is basically "Space Agency Spreadsheet Simulator" with a rocket-flying minigame
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<Bornholio> https://i.imgur.com/RRihICd.jpg sorta like this might not go well every time
<Bornholio> this is also what it takes to get that size craft off the KSP runway
<Starman4308> I see nothing wrong with strapping dozens of solid rocket motors to a B-52 to make it go faster.
<Starman4308> And now I'm wondering if rocket-assisted takeoff died because the USAF got airborne refueling working, so it wasn't as much of a problem to have their heavy bombers lift off from very long strips in the continental US.
<Starman4308> (better jet engines probably didn't hurt matters either)
<ProjectThoth> Starman4308: Rokker's prolly the guy to ask about that.
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<Rokker> Starman4308: eh, it was more just that engines got better
<Rokker> Starman4308: earlier engines, like what that B-47 there had, had abysmal take off thrust
<Rokker> Bornholio: ok fine. how about this
<Rokker> Bornholio: twin GE9Xs, double the fuselage length with graveyard 52s, replace the outboard engine mounts with more external fuel tanks
<Rokker> Bornholio: then use the extended range and payload to go on a circumnavigating bombing campaign
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<Rokker> Bornholio: seems like a solid plane if you ask me
<Rokker> plan
<Rokker> well... both work
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<Starman4308> If you're going to go on a circumnavigation bombing campaign, my opinion can be summed up as "antipodal rocket plane or bust".
<ProjectThoth> sibervogel/10 would do again
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<BadRocketsCo> Howdy
<BadRocketsCo> soundnfury: ya on?
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<leudaimon> has anybody tried the early CommNet contracts recently? I'd like to know if connection between satellites is necessary... and if RT coverage is working in general
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<Bornholio> yes, yes and yes, but they need a fixed file CC_RemoteTech.dll for coverage to function correctly
<leudaimon> thanks Bornholio, yeah, I noticed I didn't have those ingame, even though I had all requirements... then I found your instruction to dl it. I'll try to open ksp later to see if they appear now
<leudaimon> I just didn't find in the cfg where it's stated I need connection between the satellites
<Bornholio> yeah you need that, the quad is easier because of that, lower orbit and short ranges to LoS between each
<leudaimon> yeah, I'll need a bunch of antennas in each sat then, but ok
<Bornholio> I put a link in the wiki to a very good calculator for the array
<leudaimon> ah, one last question... in the current RP-1 setup are basic sats working as relays?
<Bornholio> yes
<leudaimon> nice, didn't see it in the wiki, but has been my preffered tool for that for sometime
<Bornholio> Yes, irelays work
<leudaimon> cool, will do this contract soon then, it's very annoying to lose connection during coasting
<zilti> I really question the sanity of the CKAN developers, too. I'm a software developer myself, and it's beyond me how it is even possible to make a program run as slow and as shitty as ckan... *sigh*
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<Maxsimal> Did anyone figure out what this ocean issue is?
<Starman4308> That the space center would sometimes get flooded in the space center scene? I know that's not just with RSS, but other Scatterer installs.
<Maxsimal> No, that when you're in the atmosphere, the ocean dissappears off of Canaveral - just a bit brown patch, that seems to get better when you get to orbit.
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<zilti> Maxsimal: I had the opposite happen today - a square part of land around Canaveral disappeared and was replaced with water
<awang> !tell schnobs Yeah, something's breaking symmetry. Don't know what. Other times I notice is when messing with RCS
<Qboid> awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<awang> Bornholio: Might be able to tweak MJ to get vessel mass with more decimals
<awang> I know I can get more decimals in the RP-0 avionics GUI, but I doubt that's where you want to find that info
<awang> Probably just a matter of changing to how many decimal places MJ rounds the displayed value
<awang> So in theory a single-character change
<awang> Although it may have to be made in quite a few places
<awang> (still working through scrollback...)
<awang> Who has merge access to RO/RP-0 nowadays anyways?
<awang> Mike`: Yeah, RT is apparently heavy on the CPU
<awang> Think NK/others have mentioned it before
<awang> Unlike TF, it seems to be inherent in how RT works
<awang> idk how much of that is true
<awang> Mike`: Profiling was pretty useless for me
<awang> Like I can get *a* profile
<awang> But when ~95% of the time is spent in "unaccounted".......
<awang> >:(
<awang> If you're on Windows, maybe you'll have better luck
<awang> idk if it's a mac thing
<awang> idk if I'm doing everything right either
<awang> I can connect the profiler, but maybe I'm missing a piece that would give me the right info
<awang> No, optimizing programs without profiling isn't fun
<awang> Since you're pretty much guessing where the computer is spending its time
<awang> And apparently it's a lot easier to get it wrong than to get it right
<awang> For example, I cut ~40 seconds off of a ~3 minute runtime of a program at work
<awang> Because profiling said a good chunk of the time was spent in a 20-line method that did some relatively simple math
<awang> Never would have guessed that that was a bottleneck instead of the more complex code surrounding it
<Maxsimal> Did the white sands launch site go missing for anyone yes?
<awang> Finally caught up on scrollback
<awang> Jeez this weekend was busy
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<schnobs> o/
<Qboid> schnobs: awang left a message for you in #RO [05.03.2018 15:37:36]: "Yeah, something's breaking symmetry. Don't know what. Other times I notice is when messing with RCS"
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<BadRocketsCo> Howdy
<schnobs> heya.
<schnobs> awang: you mean breaking symmetry in the sense of "VAB broken, game won't work" or the smaller "need to tweak every part individually"?
<schnobs> how many different types of life support are there, and how do they differ?
<schnobs> I'm only aware of differences in how CO2 is handled (different scrubber chemicals, or none at all).
<schnobs> Is there any more than that?
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<schnobs> now this is embarassing. My Editor woes were down to the game forgetting about two hotkeys.
<schnobs> I wonder how that happened?
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<awang> schnobs: For broken symmetry, the latter
<awang> schnobs: Was the game forgetting about the symmetry/angle snap keys?
<schnobs> yes. And only these. I don't have the slightest idea how it happened.
<awang> Got the same problem, actually
<schnobs> But in coincided with a small config change and I went looking in all teh wrong places.
<awang> Do you have editor extensions redux installed?
<schnobs> yes.
<awang> I think it has to do with that
<awang> Since it overrides the symmetry/angle snap ekys
<awang> s/ekys/keys
<Qboid> awang meant to say: Since it overrides the symmetry/angle snap keys
<schnobs> But C/X is a stock thing. EEX has no settings for them.
<awang> And apparently something causes it to not reset them
<awang> Well, it doesn't have direct settings for them
<awang> It just intercepts keypresses for "whatever key changes angle snap/symmetry"
<schnobs> Coriouser and curiouser, as Alice said.
<awang> I tried adding OnApplicationQuit() to restore the settings, but that didn't work
<awang> I'm not really sure why
<schnobs> Well, I probably killed the game by CTRL-C, as I often do. That should allow the application to perform a clean shutdown, but... well. If we were supposed to quit from the editor, there would be a button, wouldn't it?
<awang> Does Ctrl-C allow a clean shutdown?
<awang> SIGTERM, right?
<awang> Oh, SIGINT
<schnobs> Really? I'd have thought it was sigterm...
<awang> Same
<awang> Wikipedia says SIGINT
<awang> But yeah, seems an unclean shutdown might have been a possibility?
<awang> Since either OnApplicationQuit() didn't fire, or it did but the changes didn't get saved, or I screwed something up
<awang> I never figured out how to get it to happen consistently, so I could never be sure if what I tried worked
<awang> Maybe I should change it on scene change?
<awang> idk
<awang> Or OnDestroy
<schnobs> Maybe... just a check if the keys are currently unassigned, and a popup telling the player?
<schnobs> Here's a mess, and how to clean it up. Sorry that i couldn't prevent it.
<awang> Well
<awang> apparently part of the problem is that OnApplicationQuit isn't overrideable?
<awang> Or at least VS complains if I try to mark it override
<schnobs> That goes way over my head, I have to admit.
<awang> Well, the idea is that Unity provides something that it guarantees it'll call on program exit
<awang> Except apparently KSP's version of Unity doesn't provide such a thing
<schnobs> Fact is that lots of players have learned to pull the rug out from under KSP. Can't blame them, really, but it's still the user misbehaving.
<awang> It's something that mod authors *should* account for though
<awang> Hmmm
<awang> Looks like either LGG messed up or the original author did
<awang> Because the restoring code doesn't seem to be right
<awang> Either that or the application quit code doesn't work the way I originally though
<awang> Yeah, looks like Unity uses something reflection-ish
<zilti> Weird, I again re-did my whole 1.3 setup with the golden spreadsheet and the other mods I install. Now it works flawlessly.
<zilti> Except that the "Surface Experiment Package" parts don't seem to show up anywhere in the tech tree
<awang> zilti: Do they show up in the editor in sandbox mode?
<schnobs> Sandbox mode crashed on me yesterday... I thought it was because of KCT.
<schnobs> (hmm, maybe it was that crash which removed my hotkeys?)
<schnobs> IIRC it happened when I went into VAB.
<zilti> awang: Yes, they do show up there.
<zilti> awang: (in the "non-RP0" category obviously)
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<awang> schnobs: I've had a hunch that it's crashes that cause the hotkey clearing, since Unity may not get a chance to clean up properly
<awang> I never got to try enough times to determine whether it was the case, though
<awang> Maybe I should try sending a few SIGKILLs and see what happens
<awang> zilti: If they're non-RP0, shouldn't they not show up in the tech tree?
<awang> I thought things that haven't been costed/placed are put into an "orphan" node that isn't shown
<zilti> awang: yesterday I got told non-RP0 stuff is still supposed to show up in the tech tree, as it was in 1.2
<schnobs> Tried my first proper spaceplane. X-15-cockpit burns up surprisingly early.
<schnobs> On closer inspection, it's internal temp quickly surpasses the surface temp (what?).
<schnobs> There's two standard RCS nozzles attached which were expected to burn off eventually.
<schnobs> internal temp goes through the roof as these show fire effects -- may that be related?
<Pap> The way the new Tech Tree works, is that it does not use node names of any original Tech Tree. That means that any part that is not explicitly set up to work in RP 0, cannot show up in the tech tree. I would encourage you to add the surface experiments package mod to RP 0.
<schnobs> Pap: that's something I treid to ask about earlier, what's the proper process of getting a part into RP-0?
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<schnobs> (never mind getting my patches accepted eventually -- just asking about how to set things up the right way)
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<zilti> Pap: I see. Hmm. Thing is, 1. I have no clue how and 2. the balancing would probably be entirely off. Also especially because SEP is all science stuff.
<schnobs> Last time I dealt with these things, the tech tree assignment was a yaml file that went through a perl processor.
<Pap> Schnobs I am working on the documentation for the parts spreadsheet which will also explain how to add a new part from scratch.
<schnobs> So the spreadsheed isn't just a convenient thing to have everything on one page?
<Pap> It is, however it is also powerful enough to add new parts to the tech tree. It does not configure the parts for RO
<schnobs> OK. Well, I guess I'll have to wait for the docs, and make things up in the mean time (not that I expect to do much making, but hey, you never know).
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<zilti> Pap: Ahh, found the file. "TREE-Parts.cfg". So the kind of entries used in there, can I just use them and it will appear in the tech tree?
<Pap> zilti: No, you cannot do that (they will overwrite when the configs are generated from the spreadsheet)
<zilti> Pap: But are they created on KSP startup? If so, where's the source? I only kinda-sorta remember how it was done in 1.2, which seems to be very different.
<Pap> zilti: The source of the .CFG file is the online spreadsheet
<Pap> Module Manager takes the configs and puts the parts in the proper node on startup
<zilti> Pap: Yes, but that means I could put my entries in a separate .cfg loaded by Module Manager, and that should work, no?
<Pap> zilti: Yes, you can definitely do that
<Pap> zilti: HOWEVER, if you are going to put in the work, I would encourage you to share with all
<zilti> Pap: Sure. Where is the online spreadsheet? (And will that method be kept? I always found using Google spreadsheets to generate stuff a bit clumsy, as a programming perfectionist ^^)
<Pap> zilti: You should see the crazy formulas that I had to write in order to make it generate stuff correctly
<zilti> Pap: Heh, well I remember seeing some pretty crazy things in the 1.2.2 spreadsheet (it was an .xls "back then" iirc)
<zilti> Pap: Can you give me the link to the online spreadsheet?
<zilti> ...wow.
<zilti> Ahh and then the result is output on the TREE sheet.
<Pap> correct
<Pap> Only file that gets edited is the Parts sheet
<zilti> Pap: I've added four entries - do these look alright? And I guess someone (you?) needs to add more lines.
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<Pap> Anyone around?
<Pap> zilti: Here is the instructions on using the spreadsheet.....I will add step by step how to add a new part soon
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<Qboid> Pap: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<zilti> Pap: Ah, thanks! :)
<Pap> zilti: your SEP parts are included in the newest update to the tech tree so you can just pull from development and go from there.
<Pap> They will be in the RP-0 noCost area since they are not balanced and part of the science system.
<zilti> Pap: Nice! I will add the other parts after my rocket is done :P
<zilti> Also, I just noticed that the stock fuel tanks are fully broken, meaning it's impossible to set the fuel
<zilti> Ahh, scratch that, I misclicked ^^
<Bornholio> SPAM! PAP
<Pap> Bornholio I am just making sure no one misses it.
<awang> Pap: Alright, I'll take a look after work
<Bornholio> Pap did poor NK wander of in a funk? We really need a merger/Pusher or three
<Pap> Bornholio, I think he is taking a much needed mental health break
<awang> Yeah, life has not been kind to NK
<Bornholio> yeah, I wish him well. Pap is he the only person that can promote a pusher?
<Pap> He used to be, but I might have some more power now. I won't be able to look until later. Who wants the new power?
<Bornholio> worst case myself, but wanted to know to direct the poor unsuspecting ... Helpful soul