ferram4 changed the topic of #RO to: Welcome to the discussion channel for the Realism Overhaul (meta)mod for KSP! Realism Overhaul Main Thread https://goo.gl/wH7Dzb ! RO Spreadsheet http://goo.gl/Oem3g0 ! Code of Conduct http://goo.gl/wOSv2M ! | Maximal & soundnfury's RP-1 Race Into Space Signup: http://bit.ly/2DEVm2i [15:01] <soundnfury> Straight Eight Stronk (and) RP-0/1 is basically "Space Agency Spreadsheet Simulator"
<Bornholio> okay booting with RiS in
<Bornholio> crum, needs NoNonRP0 folder in?
<soundnfury> Not strictly required
<soundnfury> you can just... not use non-RP0 parts ;)
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<Bornholio> difficult setting?
<Bornholio> Hard, but allw revert
<soundnfury> yeah, that was the plan
<soundnfury> again, honour system: use reverts if you hit a bug
<soundnfury> (I think also if something goes wrong because you were trying to take a screenshot. Don't want to penalise people for trying to make good AARs)
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<Bornholio> Okay, have joined
<soundnfury> oh and I think I figured out why Maxsimal couldn't connect. Server name should not include http:// prefix
<soundnfury> Bornholio: \o/
<Bornholio> how are saves handled? and what is the upload stuff, is ther an M to RTFM?
<soundnfury> there's a README in the download...
<soundnfury> and a bit of explanation in the forum thread https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/161588-131-race-into-space/ ...
<soundnfury> not clear what you want to know about saves, please elaborate on your question
<Bornholio> just persistent save/load and nothing is uploaded for saves?
<soundnfury> yeah, the server doesn't know about your saves
<soundnfury> it just knows about the last date you sync'ed
<soundnfury> and if you sync at an earlier date 'cos you reloaded, it'll ignore you
<soundnfury> so only sync when you're sure you aren't going to want to revert
<Bornholio> alright, fisrt launch, oh how do i sync/when, should i do it after each mission?
<soundnfury> It's sufficient just to sync at the end of each playing session just before you exit, that's what we mostly did last time
<soundnfury> but if you want to sync more often that's fine
<soundnfury> (as for 'how', you click the big "SYNC" button and wait for it to turn green ;)
<Bornholio> oh, yes that button :P
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<Bornholio> First Launch, 17√ 15√Rush 60√ launch day4 hr 17 5.4science and first launch contract :P lol recovered 16√ https://i.imgur.com/PT8pz8G.png
<Bornholio> Nerf Football for Science
<Bornholio> almost got it to the runway for re-use
<soundnfury> how did you manage that? my first launch wasn't recoverable, had no science except telemetry (1.5§), and took until day 6
<soundnfury> do you really get 5§ for recovering from a little hop?
<Bornholio> snubotron, 8.5m/s silk chute, sounding rocket core, sum fins, thermometer and barometer
<soundnfury> wow
<soundnfury> well done
<Bornholio> something blew up on landing. On to lots of sounding rockets
<soundnfury> yup; last career I did had ~30 sounding rockets before the first shots at orbit
<Bornholio> okay did a sync
<soundnfury> great, looks like it worked :)
<Bornholio> also best pun ever (phobos albedo joke in Ribbons for RSS thread)
<soundnfury> what can I say, I like puns :)
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<KevinStarwaster> awang what was that about SpaceX putting a hole in the ionosphere? huh?
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<soundnfury> Accursed be the name of Agathorn!
<Bornholio> all sayeth the throng "Hail the dark lord Agathorn!"
<Bornholio> lurking on the cthulhu Regio sending his waves of engine destroying power throughout the solar system
<Starman4308> I saw one article, which was "Clickbait title: SpaceX rocket does something all orbital launch vehicles do: punch holes in the ionosphere, except because this launch was unusually vertical, it punched a circular hole"
<soundnfury> Bornholio: lol. I like the idea that Agathorn lives on Pluto now; it would explain why we've not heard from him lately xD
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<KevinStarwaster> ok, the MLI code is now good enough for government work...
<soundnfury> right, if you can't beat y1d038 then either you're terrible at this game or you got agathorned even harder than me
<soundnfury> KevinStarwaster: ooh, exciting
<Bornholio> .cheers
<Bornholio> will you release 1.3.1 then?
<Bornholio> oh and what formula did you end up using for MLI layer emmisivity
<KevinStarwaster> Modified Lockheed Equation
<KevinStarwaster> there's also some dewar code but it's not plugged in
<KevinStarwaster> couldn't find a long enough extension cord
<soundnfury> xD
<KevinStarwaster> MLE returns lower values (by about 30%) than I expected based on DRA 5 literature and I'm not sure which is right.
<Bornholio> strange
<Bornholio> is it color /surface coatings maybe?
<KevinStarwaster> could also be a KSP issue now that I think about it... skin temps consistently are lower than you'd expect for something in LEO
<KevinStarwaster> bornholio, possibly... the DRA 5 graphical depictions always show tanks with bare MLI showing rather than being layered with something like Beta cloth.
<KevinStarwaster> That could just be an artistic issue but I set the emissivity values higher than that
<KevinStarwaster> bare double aluminized Kapton has something like 0.03
<KevinStarwaster> code is committed and pushed btw (NewCryo131)
<KevinStarwaster> are we pushing ahead for 131 for RO or are folks still sticking to 1.2.2?
<Bornholio> push, most everything has 1.3.1 masters atleast
<Bornholio> and awang put out PR's for tons of 1.4.1 things
<Bornholio> but i'm biased :)
<KevinStarwaster> goddamit Gordon posted something in DRE... I'm afraid to go see what it is
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<Bornholio> lol
<Bornholio> he's a hard nut
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<Starman4308> Gordon Dry? Oh man, he is a... person.
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<Pap> Question for you coders. For my class, I have to learn the basics of a new language to write some sorting algorithms for my final project. These are my options, which would you choose and why? Scratch, Scala, R, Lisp, Prolog, OCaml, Clojure, Haskell
<Pap> Go, Rust or Swift
<Pap> or Ruby / Ruby on Rails
<soundnfury> Pap: I've never used any of those languages, but I'd say either Go or Lisp. Go because it's the most likely contender to replace C, Lisp because grokking Lisp will make you a better programmer even if you never actually use it.
<Pap> Interesting, thank you
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<Bornholio> soundnfury, are you not tired GMT0 guy
<Bornholio> good night from +8
<soundnfury> Bornholio: A little, but I'm currently rather nocturnal
<Bornholio> synced after day 9 launch to karman
<soundnfury> I have a generally messed up sleep cycle
<Pap> You guys started a RiS? Exciting!
<soundnfury> (I will probably be zzzing soon)
<soundnfury> Pap: yeah; there's still time to join if you want ;)
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<Pap> No time unfortunately :(
<soundnfury> shame
<Pap> spoiler alert, I would lose anyway :)
<Bornholio> Pap is there a chance of release for RSS if not what do i need to do to make it happen
<Bornholio> assuming modify a bunch of versiony files
<Bornholio> plus aim it at your textures
<Pap> Bornholio: I actually have no clue. The 1.3 version should be absolutely fine. Nothing should need to be done, but I would double check with Phineas Freak as he is the most up-to-date on it
<Bornholio> alright then thats something i'll ask him tomorrow
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<blowfish> should hopefully get RF out soon
<Qboid> blowfish: awang left a message for you in #RO [22.03.2018 13:14:02]: "Do debug builds have significantly worse performance or something? I thought the JIT would take care of most of that or something"
<blowfish> awang: default is that some compilier optimizations are turned off
<blowfish> you can configure it though
<blowfish> not sure if there are any other differences other than generating the pdb
<blowfish> and bits of code that are surrounded by #if DEBUG ... #endif
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<blowfish> !seen Starwaster
<Qboid> blowfish: I haven't seen the user Starwaster yet.
<blowfish> !seen starwaster
<Qboid> blowfish: I haven't seen the user starwaster yet.
<blowfish> !tell Starwaster looks like newCryo is in master so it'll be going out with the next RF release. Do you have any release notes for it?
<Qboid> blowfish: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Maxsimal> o/
<Qboid> Maxsimal: soundnfury left a message for you in #RO [22.03.2018 23:54:24]: "let me know whether you can view http://jttlov.no-ip.org:8082 in a browser. Send me your KSP.log and screenshots of you trying to connect"
<Maxsimal> !tell soundnfury: I'll have to check when I'm at home for sure - but I think I was seeing it in a browser and I can see it right now from here.
<Qboid> Maxsimal: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<Bornholio> blowfish kevinstarwaster hasn't been shortenign his name up
<KevinStarwaster> oops?
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<Starwaster> there
<Qboid> Starwaster: blowfish left a message for you in #RO [23.03.2018 05:40:05]: "looks like newCryo is in master so it'll be going out with the next RF release. Do you have any release notes for it?"
<Starwaster> !tell blowfish we'll need to get together to talk about new cryo. What time table do you have for release and what KSP versions are we targeting? Are we finally leaving 1.2.2 behind?
<Qboid> Starwaster: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
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<awang> !u √
<Qboid> U+221A SQUARE ROOT (√)
<awang> Starwaster: What Starman4308 said about the rocket poking a hole in the ionosphere
<awang> Launch was much more vertical than usual, so the hole is a lot bigger than usual
<Starwaster> awang we're all gonna die?
<Starwaster> is it over?
<Starwaster> has Elon killed us all?
<Starwaster> ohnoes.... we're doomed
<awang> idk how severe it actually is
<awang> Starwaster: Government work?
<Starwaster> what?
<Starman4308> The reprecussions I heard about it was "GPS got less accurate by about 1 meter temporarily"
<awang> Starwaster: I agree with Bornholio; dropping 1.2.2 should be fine
<Starwaster> not really, I don't think it's worked for about a year now
<awang> Is anything important still stuck on 1.2.2?
<Starwaster> oh that
<awang> Can't think of anything
<Starwaster> probably not
<awang> Also who is this Gordon Dry?
<Starwaster> omg
<Starwaster> dont even
<Starwaster> triggering intensifies...
<awang> Pap: I agree with soundnfury
<Starman4308> Gordon Dry is a... person on the KSP forums. It is hard to describe the sheer Gordon Dryness of Gordon Dry.
<awang> I think I remember reading somewhere that you should try at least one language from one of the major families
<Pap> Thanks awang. What is Lisp? I know nothing about it yet
<Starwaster> starman4308 I have taken to ignoring him.... I don't even respond to him anymore. If he makes a support request on my mods then I guess I'll answer it maybe but otherwise I just ignore the **** out of him
<Starwaster> hey has KSP 1.4 improved terrain slidiness at ALL?
<Starwaster> I haven't tried wheeled things or bases so I wouldn't know
<awang> Lisps (Common Lisp, Scheme, Clojure, Racket), Algol-derived languages (C, C++, etc.), ML-derived languages (OCaml, don't know if Haskell counts as ML-derived? Just something functional), and a logic programming language (Something like APL or Prolog, I think?)
<awang> For each of those languages specifically
<awang> idk much about Scratch. Seems it's visual, so personally I wouldn't go for it if only because it's so different
<awang> Scala is a functional language for the JVM
<awang> Don't know much about R besides that it's commonly used in data processing. Don't know if you really want to be doing serious programming in that
<awang> Lisps are interesting.
<awang> There's the "minimal" lisp, Scheme
<awang> I think Scheme has been succeed by Racket?
<Starman4308> Most of what I know about R is that my labmates complain about their R homework, and that it has a bunch of libraries for statistical analysis.
<awang> Don't know much about Common Lisp. I want to say that it's intended to be more full-featured, although Racket has generally broken from the minimalism of Scheme
<awang> Racket should still have an option to use minimal mode, I think
<awang> Don't know much about Prolog, besides that it's significantly different from most languages you'll see
<awang> I've heard OCaml might be a good balance between functional purity and more "practical" programming
<awang> Clojure is a Lisp for the JVM
<awang> Haskell is... well... Haskell
<awang> Functional programming at its best/worst
<awang> Go is derived from C, and focuses on practicality and concurrency (from what I understand)
<awang> It's somewhat opinionated, too
<awang> Rust is a mix of C-style languages and ML-style languages
<awang> Swift is ML-derived, I think? Don't know much about it
<awang> I'd go with Go, Rust, a lisp, or OCaml
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<awang> I don't think Go will replace C (too much resistance to Go's garbage collector), but it seems to be growing fast and seems to be pretty good at just getting things done without excessively fancy features
<awang> Lisp for the same reason as soundnfury
<awang> Rust because I think it's the most like C/C++, while still having more modern features
<awang> I'd go with Rust, C, or C++ if you really want to know what is going on internally, since those languages give you a lot of control over what happens
<awang> That's why they're used for low-level stuff
<awang> OCaml because it's functional, without being over-the-top like Haskell could be
<awang> I know it's used in some financial companies, so it is at least somewhat practical
<awang> And it compiles much faster than Scala
<awang> !tell blowfish I see. Does the lack of compiler optimizations affect performance a lot?
<Qboid> awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<awang> idk what the C# compiler is capable of
<awang> !tell blowfish idk what the C# compiler is capable of
<Qboid> awang: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<awang> Starwaster: If we're going to die, it's not yet
<awang> Hopefully
<awang> Starwaster: You said something about how the cryo code was fit for government work?
<awang> ...I feel I need to look at Gordon Dry's profile now
<awang> Pap: Sorry, was getting through scrollback
<awang> And rambling on about programming languages
<awang> I think the core thing about Lisp is that it's built around very simple concepts
<awang> Scheme is the best example of this
<awang> Everything is a list
<awang> EVERYTHING
<awang> So you can put pretty miuch arbitrary things anywhere, although doing so may not make sense
<awang> The core syntax is something along the lines of (op [list] [list]...)
<awang> Where <op> can be really anything that can process whatever arguments it's given
<awang> Functions are also treated like normal variables, so you can have an expression that ends up as an op
<awang> ((if (= x 1) + -) 2 3) means "if x = 1, add 2 and 3, otherwise subtract 3 from 2"
<awang> Oh, that and anonymous functions
<awang> ...I feel like I'm not quite explaining this right
<Starman4308> Quick question awang: are there languages with good support for on-the-fly compiling user-provided strings into mathematical functions?
<awang> Lisps are also well-known for their macro systems, which I unfortunately don't really know much about
<Starman4308> I know the OpenMM package we link to has such functions (C++); unsure if anything of that nature exists for Java. And yes, scientific software laaaaaags behind the modern compute languages.
<awang> Because everything is a list, it means your source code is composed of lists
<awang> Starman4308: User-provided strings like "f(x) = x^2"?
<awang> Maybe Mathmatica?
<awang> brb, sorry
<Starman4308> Yep.
<Starman4308> For example, in OpenMM, you can define a CustomBondForce if you want to do something like, say, implement a flat-bottom well instead of the normal harmonic well.
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<awang> Starman4308: And the CustomBondForce is entered by the user while the program is running?
<awang> Seems there are some Java libraries, but idk about their quality
<Starman4308> Technically speaking, the "user" is the Force Field X program, but yeah: it's done at runtime, with calculation of derivatives.
<awang> Hmmm
<awang> You can't build the expressions programmatically?
<awang> like
<awang> Instead of parsing/evaluating f(x) = x^2, something like new Function(new Multiply(x, x))
<Starman4308> I suppose that might have been reasonably possible if OpenMM was all C++. OpenMM, however, has underlying compute kernels for CUDA, OpenCL, optimized C++, and reference C++.
<awang> Hm
<awang> So you need some data type that's common to all of them?
<Starman4308> Pretty much. THey have it working, I was mostly wondering if there are any languages that have similar compile-function-from-string-at-runtime capabilities.
<awang> Well
<awang> If the function is String -> Function
<awang> How is Function defined?
<awang> Is it the Java Function?
<Starman4308> It's literally a string we plug into our Java program and pass through to OpenMM.
<awang> How does the pass through part work?
<Starman4308> OpenMM has an API method "CustomBondForce.create(String funct)"
<Starman4308> We have a JNA wrapper "OpenMM_CustomBondForce_Create(PointerByReference theSystem, String aString)"
<awang> Wait, so why do you need to create the function on the Java side of things?
<awang> Sorry, I'm probably confusing myself :(
<Starman4308> Because we want to use algorithms present on the Java side of things, with energy/gradient evaluations from OpenMM's fast CUDA/OpenCL codes.
<awang> Hmmm
<Starman4308> Basically, "We have this energy term working on Java. Now, OpenMM, do our bidding faster than we can".
<awang> So you want to be able to pass the Java code a string with some expression, where some of it is done in Java and some through OpenMM?
<Starman4308> Not precisely. We have a native Java function we'd like to duplicate in OpenMM, without actually writing any code for OpenMM.
<Starman4308> So, we write a string that mocks up that function, such as: String fbHarmonic = "0.5*k*dv^2;dv=step(dv)*step(dv-fb)*(dv-fb)+step(-dv)*step(-dv-fb)*(-dv-fb);dv=r-r0"
<Starman4308> (also, gotta go to work. Sorry if I'm confusing you on something I'm only curious about, not have any need for)
<awang> Alright
<awang> No need to worry, it's an interesting problem
<awang> It's worth the confusion
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<Starwaster> Fun with Deadly Reentry: Set crew g-force tolerances to ridiculously low levels :P
<Starwaster> awang right, MLI code works now in that I can reliably control skin-internal conduction, though the equation reports lower conduction values than I expected. I think that's acceptable and it can be tweaked if necessary. Just have a few other things such as mass/cost deltas when installing MLI. Also plugging in dewar code; I think for now I'll just set it up to be used automatically for given tank types (such as service modules) rather than mess with
<Starwaster> creating new GUI buttons
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<soundnfury> Maxsimal: I don't know if you saw, but I suspect your problem might have been including http:// in the server address
<soundnfury> just the hostname goes in the box
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<Maxsimal> soundnfury: I saw, that's probably it, I'll try that tonight
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<Starwaster> ok so I sometimes dunk my donut into my coffee as do many others I'm sure... but I sure as hell did not mean to drop the whole damn thing into the mug :(
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<schnobs> Somehow, the soaky mess is nowhere as delicious as it's constituents.
<Qboid> schnobs: Maxsimal_ left a message for you in #RO [20.03.2018 10:16:15]: "Saw you post about missing oceans, I had the same problem which Pap diagnosed. If you back your kopernicus version down to release 1.3.1-3, it'll be working - at least, it did for me using a golden-spreadsheet install on 1.3.1."
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<Rokker> I'm excited, my friend and I might be going down to see one of the big two launches this summer
<schnobs> Sigh. Once more I somehow managed to attach Nitrogen Thrusters to a Hydrazine-laden probe.
<schnobs> And something seems to be wrong with scansat contracts. I was offered exactly one (low res/earth) and no more.
<schnobs> Checking it, it says "must have scanned less than 70% of target body: unmet"
<schnobs> Seeing as I haven't scanned anything at all, it should be unmet... strange that.
<schnobs> Hm, now I got the offer. Maybe it wants more than zero but less then 70...?
<Starwaster> ok this terrain sliding bullshit is seriously starting to piss me off... pardon my Kerbal
<Starwaster> Kerblish...
<schnobs> Slipperly slope, or bouncing rovers?
<Starwaster> this has been going on in Unity games for at LEAST 9 years
<Starwaster> slippery
<Starwaster> I'm standing on like a 5 degree slope and slowly sliding
<Starwaster> and I've done some googling and it's not KSP specific, it's Unity
<Starwaster> saw someone suggest increasing solver iterations so I tried increasing that and that doesn't do anything... why is this happening?
<schnobs> wild-ish guess: terrain collision being overly precise or something.
<schnobs> result is that you constanttly sink into teh ground and are being lifted up again.
<Starwaster> or material friction values
<schnobs> on every vibration, vessel does the right thing by also moving downhill.
<schnobs> whatever the ultimate reason, I'm pretty certain it's because you never actually stand still.
<Starwaster> how is that the right thing? I'm standing on a very slight incline on grass in rubberized footwear
<Starwaster> friction should be dominating here
<schnobs> As I said, I guess it's because you're never actually standing still.
<schnobs> Tossed up a few micrometers, fall down a few micrometers...
<Starwaster> and again, friction should be the dominating force
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<schnobs> Again guess: Friction *is* dominating, otherwise you'd run down the slope as if it was greased ice.
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<schnobs> As I said, I don't really know. But just from looking at it, I suspect that unity is never quite clear about you being on the ground or not. The end result certainly looks like one of these things:
<Starwaster> well that's pretty much what's happening. If I let it sit here it'll keep on sliding
<Starwaster> not about the vibration I mean about sliding down the hill
<Starwaster> sorry I don't buy the vibration thing and it's not going to be useful in finding a solution
<schnobs> Yeah. It doesn't visibly shake, but the way it wanders off...
<Starwaster> thanks anyway
<schnobs> I'm afraid I wasn't of any help, but you're welcome :)
<schnobs> Never worked with KAS anchors, but maybe that's what you need. Virtually nail it to that gound, that is, an x/y position.
<schnobs> Can do that with a lunar lander, not applicable to cars where some sliding is very much ecpected.
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<Maxsimal_> soundnfury: who/what is _hold on the game? I've joined now btw.
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<awang> Starwaster: Sounds like you're making good progress with the new cryo stuff!
<Starwaster> awang yeah, it's conducting the way it should. It wasn't before because when I was normalizing the conduction I was factoring in part.heatConduction which was a mistake because I was then CHANGING heatConduction
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<soundnfury> Maxsimal: _hold is there to keep the Min. Date at 0 until everyone's joined. I added it by hand
<soundnfury> now that you're joined I'll remove it
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<soundnfury> btw Maxsimal_, Bornholio: what launch sites are y'all using?
* soundnfury went with Kodiak
<Bornholio> the cape
<Bornholio> no switcher installed
<soundnfury> 0_o
<soundnfury> how are you planning to reach polar orbits, then? Fly over Cuba? ;)
<Bornholio> bomb DC
<soundnfury> draining the swamp are you? xD
<Bornholio> mostly parachute boosters into wallops
<Bornholio> upperstages into greenland and russia
<soundnfury> I'm too much of a good guy, that's my problem
<Bornholio> at least for polar stuff, but, i throw a cuban cigar manned SO sometimes, Manned V2
<Rokker> Bornholio: you should get TAC Fuel Balancer, its really handy for pumping fuel around on a plane
<Bornholio> yes, along with the working runway mod
<Bornholio> only one addition to the MK1.4 Sheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jqFjaHCo0gdIj5mX61V8D02Ma6v1WfH2Zuv0ddXgG5M/edit#gid=0 DMagic added
<Rokker> Bornholio: TACFB is updated afaik
<Bornholio> yes it is
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<Rokker> Bornholio: well, ive figured out why bombers have such massive tails
<Rokker> because mine sure as crap has yaw troubles
<Bornholio> yeah, low slung, maximized fuel loads and bombs make for pretty pisspoor startoff handling
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<Bornholio> Buff's have a nice feature because of it called "Crab"
<Bornholio> all the gear and landing angle can be rotated with one turn handle so it can come in at a large off runway axis to land in very heavy winds