<TTMN>
sure but I'm trying to figure out how these space planes work
<packbart>
if it performed better before, I'd look at the drag overlay and debug data
<packbart>
I heard those Mk2 parts have the worst drag
<TTMN>
hmm how do I open that?
<packbart>
the overlay with F12, the debug data can be enabled under Physics/Aero in the cheat/debug menu (mod-F12)
<packbart>
red arrows mean drag, blue arrows mean lift
<Althego>
yellow is control surface
<Althego>
cyan is body ift
<Althego>
purple is blade
<Althego>
and they are running oout of colors
<TTMN>
hmm I don't really see any red arrow
<TTMN>
s
<Althego>
then you are not going fast enough :)
<Althego>
some of them may hide inside the body
<TTMN>
nvmd I'm seeing it now
<TTMN>
was covered by the engine
<TTMN>
just had to change the angle a bit
<TTMN>
but
<TTMN>
I'm not sure what that is telling me lol
<Althego>
for easier results there is the aero debug view in the alt-f12 menu, that shows sum drag sum lift and stuff like that
<Althego>
it is telling you, you want to fly the plane in a way that generates the least dra
<TTMN>
would that be when I'm closest to prograde in most cases?
<Althego>
yes
<Althego>
unfortunately in ksp 0 degree aoa wings dont generate lift
<Althego>
so typically your nose is pointing a bit up, creating drag
<Althego>
solution is to add a bit of an angle to the wings
<TTMN>
hmm horizontal I'm guessing?
<Althego>
this only matters if your twr is very low, typically for breaking the sound barrier. butany ssto that has high delta v would fall in this categiry
<Black_Eagle>
packbart: mark2 is okay. it's really bad if your plane has a huge angle of attack. you should tilt the wings a little bit to counteract this
<Althego>
wings are in the back, so i would probably go with the copout canards
<Black_Eagle>
why is docking so imprecise? i tried to dock a craft in a specific roll position and it just kept rolling and bumping around
<TTMN>
Althego what are copout canards?
<Althego>
they are copout because they are the easy solution to the problem. control surfaces in the front. they add the missing lift in the front if your wings are in the back. they also add easy takeoff by lifting the nose, instead of pushing the tail down (where it cant go because of the runway)
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<UmbralRaptor>
You say copout, I say good engineering tradeoff
<UmbralRaptor>
Anyway, I can't see any canards on it, but it might be the lighting <_<
<Althego>
yes me neither
<Althego>
that is why it has high aoa
<Althego>
but in reality most planes dont need them
<Althego>
i wonder how they do it
<Althego>
look at the sr71 for example
<Althego>
supposedly some lift is generated on the body
<Althego>
but mk2 parts also do that in ksp
<UmbralRaptor>
For really small jets, I tend to have a pair of canards do 100% of my pitch and roll inputs >_>
<UmbralRaptor>
(Also, who needs yaw?)
<Althego>
i dont
<TTMN>
This is really frustrating
<TTMN>
adding canards to the front really didn't change anything
<TTMN>
tilting the wings a bit didn't either
<Althego>
but anyway, what is the problem with the plane?
<TTMN>
It doesn't gain speed after getting into the second level of the atmosphere
<Althego>
sstos also tend to have a specific profile what you really have to fly to make them work
<TTMN>
And somehow I managed to get to 1400m/s earlier with a very similar design
<Althego>
that can be because of drag, true
<TTMN>
but idk what I did differently
<Althego>
but jets are finicky
<Althego>
like they start to create high thrust above the speed of sound
<UmbralRaptor>
Possibly also engine performance, lots of engines lose thrust at ~mach 1, and the whiplash and rapier gain a lot a bit afterwards, so a shallow dive may be necessary
<Althego>
but they also dont like to work above 20-25 km
<Althego>
so you wantto fligh as fast as possible in a narrow altitude band
<Althego>
this is quite different to the ascent profile of rockets
<TTMN>
I tried to follow the profiles suggested by other people online
<TTMN>
I don't get any more speed after ~10 km
<Althego>
sounds like the engines cant overpower the drag
<Althego>
and that is a vicious cycle, because you get high thrust above the speed of sound, but if you cant brake the sound barrier it doesnt work
<Althego>
obvious solution: more boosters :)
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<UmbralRaptor>
Navier-Stokes equations are annoying
<Althego>
hehe
<Althego>
in general partial differential equations are no joke
<UmbralRaptor>
All I can suggest to TTMN is trying to include a dive in the flight profile and/or shrinking the craft to increase TWR and reduce drag
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<Althego>
that is there in the skylon profile too
<Althego>
although i never had luck with this
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<UmbralRaptor>
Yay, it's (technically) a realistic flight profile
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* UmbralRaptor
should probably get a handle on the new science and robotics parts at some point
<Althego>
lol how did gog turn into german
<Althego>
hehe, sprache wählen, english, and then it stays german, i refresh and it is still german
<UmbralRaptor>
Bad geolocation and language assumptions?
<Althego>
no, it resets the language to german which is the second choice
<TTMN>
hmm UmbralRaptor I'll try to do that but I'll also get less delta V
<TTMN>
I would add more engines
<Althego>
is that a stock plane?
<TTMN>
but not sure where I would put them lol
<TTMN>
Mine is
<Althego>
can i try it?
<TTMN>
sure
<TTMN>
sec
<TTMN>
If I can find the craft file location
<Althego>
saves <name> ships vab
<UmbralRaptor>
^
<Althego>
or rather sph
<Althego>
for an airplane
<TTMN>
yeah that folder doesn't seem to exist
<Althego>
at least usually but not always
<TTMN>
or maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place
<Althego>
in hindsight i should have noticed the orange flame
<Black_Eagle>
TTMN try these modifications: replace the radial intake 1.25m block with a Lf tank (400Lf). swap the Lf tank right behind the cockpit to the LfOx tank
<Black_Eagle>
TTMN, which rocket engine are you using? terrier?
<TTMN>
yeah
<Black_Eagle>
you could use the Mk2 single => dual 1.25m tank pieces and put two terriers on it
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<Black_Eagle>
i'm not sure if that works all the way. i guess i could try it myself
<Althego>
or just use a single sviwel
<Althego>
for the rocket
<Althego>
that could probably push it to orbit from 800 m/s
<Black_Eagle>
swivel is how much thrust
<Black_Eagle>
180?
<Althego>
215 vac
<Althego>
that is twr > 1 since 20t takeoff weight
<Black_Eagle>
TTMN: does your wing sweep forward?
<Althego>
so i added a bit of aoa to the wings and changed to swivel, and it easily makes it into... suborbital because of lack of fuel
<Althego>
maybe with 2 terriers
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<TTMN>
So I did upgrade to the whiplash and seems like the single terrier isn't quite powerful enough there either
<Althego>
but at least your fuel will be enough :)
<Althego>
since you can go up to maybe 1300 with this mass
<Althego>
in this iteration it has too much liquid fuel
<TTMN>
I always have too much fuel tbh
<Mat2ch>
too much lfo is not a problem. Just take a detour somewhere ;)
<Althego>
it is actually useful for ballast
<Althego>
one issue with long planes liekthis
<Mat2ch>
I once had an SSTO with 2k or 3k dV left in orbit. That was nice
<Althego>
that if they run dry they may become unstable
<Althego>
because the engines are in the back
<Althego>
so the dry com always moves backwards
<Black_Eagle>
Mat2ch Althego it makes it into a 75x75 orbit with 200m/s left
<Mat2ch>
Sweet!
<Althego>
nice
<Althego>
i think i build that for myself too
<Black_Eagle>
flight profile is 900/ms below 1k, then pitch up as smoothly as possible to about 25 degrees. fire up swivel at ~18k
<Althego>
because that front part makes it cute
<Black_Eagle>
you could probably make it even more efficient by removing 100 Lf. had some extra
<TTMN>
hmm my two terriers are climbing way too slowly at 26 km
<TTMN>
I really have to figure out this part of the flight path
<Black_Eagle>
TTMN: Althego's suggestion for swivel was actually really good. you could try that, too
<Althego>
the point of the big jets is to collect enough speed so that the apoapsis is far enough that you can make into orbit with less than 1 twr
<TTMN>
yeah I probably should
<Black_Eagle>
also most likely the most efficient flight profile is to go really fast below 1000m and then pitch up to about 15-30 degrees, ideally fire the rocket around 20k
<Black_Eagle>
with rapier it's 30k
<Black_Eagle>
although with rapiers you can pretty much insert yourself into space. i always climb full power and end up apoapsis 120k and then i'm like "but my station is at 80k"
<Black_Eagle>
Althego have you ever noticed the landing gear has a heat tolerance of 2600 K? for reference mk2 cockpit has only 2500 K
<Althego>
hehe
<Althego>
no
<Eddi|zuHause>
"then i'm like "but my station is at 80k"" <-- i don't put my stations that low, because that makes for tricky rendevouz
<Black_Eagle>
Eddi|zuHause i wouldn't either but most of my SSTO creations are one or two man seaters and so tiny that they can't make it any further :D
<Eddi|zuHause>
... and i can't figure out launch windows to plan rendevouz right from launch
<TTMN>
hmm I almost got into orbit this time
<TTMN>
but still too inefficient
<Black_Eagle>
Eddi|zuHause https://i.imgur.com/2tG6zay.png there's this thing that makes it into orbit with 200Lf and nothing else
<TTMN>
I mean I did get into orbit but without enough fuel to rondesvouz
<nate>
Has anyone ever created like an actual orbital shipyard mod or template yet? Haven't really looked in ages but it was something I always wanted to see
<Eddi|zuHause>
Black_Eagle: i've no clue how that thing even flies :p
<Black_Eagle>
pretty well if i remember correctly. shoots up like a rocket. the flight profile is pretty much the lowest ascent that makes it above 70km and doesn't blow up the whole thing from overheating
<packbart>
and there's Extraplanetary Launchpads by taniwha, iirc
<packbart>
I really need to look at that, too
<Althego>
but there is areson i dont want to use those jets for an orbital ship, really inefficient
* packbart
imagines an actual shipyard would involve sending a flock of engineers on EVA and attach every part manually with KIS/KAS magic
<Althego>
hehe
<Althego>
actualyl you could do that in the editor too
<Althego>
you place a part, but it would just place a ghost image, and you could see as engineers move it there and weld it
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<packbart>
there's another mod that uses GC to build the caft on the launchpad
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<packbart>
when you press "launch" it packs the vessel into a DIY kit and sets up a workshop + materials on the launchpad
<packbart>
might take a few days to assemble a large craft
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<Althego>
hehe, assembling orbital interceptor
<Althego>
power extreme :)
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<Black_Eagle>
Althego, true. the only reason you'd do it is if you don't have whiplash or rapier unlocked
<Althego>
rapier is tough, but whiplash is reachable. although for a long time i fly with panthers in career
<Black_Eagle>
packbart that's a cool idea... i wish they let you build parts in space/on the ground from ore
<Black_Eagle>
we'd finally have a use for the larger ore tanks
<Black_Eagle>
and depending on the size of the shipyard you could build certain size parts etc
<Black_Eagle>
one could make cheesing it more difficult by having to bring 'exotic materials kit' from Kerbin every time you want to build a part, simulating the fact that you can extract common elements but you can't realistically expect to find enough uranium from an asteroid to power a RTG
<packbart>
GC does exactly that. it can produce parts from MaterialKits and SpecializedParts, both of which can be converted from ore
<Black_Eagle>
wow okay i didn't know that
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<transitbiker_>
Kerbal Space Program LIVE! Apollo style moon landing mission! Can we get it done today?! Tune in live: https://youtu.be/q3sN3zGYLoo
<kmath>
YouTube - Apollo 11 tribute LIVE in Kerbal Space Program! (TAKE TREE!)
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<transitbiker>
whew
<kubi>
and why we need that face on the screen?
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<Black_Eagle>
what do you guys think; can throw someone's food in the trash if they're being an ass on purpose
<UmbralRaptop>
uh
<packbart>
I'd say no
<packbart>
(and I don't care either ;)
<Black_Eagle>
probably a good call
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