<stratochief>
eh, just pick your own topic, start talking about it. let the attention wander away from the attention starved child
<stratochief>
random spreadsheet results: an upgraded Saturn V with 5 F-1A engines has the same TLI as a Saturn V where the LH2 engines are simply changed to J-2S i
<stratochief>
47T TLI from the standard rocket, 52T from the upgrade
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<blowfish>
I hoped the comments in the youtube chat for a japanese rocket launch would be of higher quality than the comments on Youtube in general. I was wrong :(
<leudaimon>
lol where do the flat-earthers come from?!
<blowfish>
maybe the comments in Japanese are better than the comments in English. I can't say though
<blowfish>
Anyone know what the SSBs vs SRBs are used for on some HII variants? Are the SSBs just supplemental thrust for the first bit of flight?
<stratochief>
blowfish: no ideal about the details; solids are for supplement, like a Delta rocket. I think they are necessary for it to get off the ground, even
<leudaimon>
according to this table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-IIA#Variants the SSBs increased GTO payload a little, but given they are discontinued, I guess were superseded by H-IIB
<leudaimon>
(or just the version with 4 full-fledged SRB-As
<leudaimon>
actually, I haven't seen this SSB acronym used in other launchers
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<Rokker>
ugh god dammit
<Rokker>
the X-1 cockpit barely holds enough for an orbit
<Rokker>
enough oxygen*
<leudaimon>
wow... I feel guilt when I use it for suborbital hops, using it for orbit is a whole new level
<Rokker>
leudaimon: hey, i have heat shields, i have a cockpit
<Rokker>
its 1954 and i gotta beat the commies
<leudaimon>
lol
<leudaimon>
it shouldn't survive reentry anyway, but for the oxygen you can use a "service module"
<Rokker>
cant
<Rokker>
dont seem to have the stuff unlocked for oxygen
<leudaimon>
but I guess you need the capsule node for that anyway
<leudaimon>
exactly
<leudaimon>
you shouldn't be able to make orbit without that node
<Rokker>
leudaimon: well too bad
<Rokker>
nobody told jeb
<leudaimon>
did you survive?
<Rokker>
leudaimon: about to perform deorbit burn now now
<leudaimon>
gagarin style, 1 orbit?
<Rokker>
leudaimon: yeah
<Rokker>
leudaimon: just shy of technically one orbit
<Rokker>
landing south of the keys
<leudaimon>
cool... let me know if you survive. what size is you shield?
<Rokker>
leudaimon: 1.25
<Rokker>
leudaimon: earlier testing went well in terms of reentry but it was a bit topple-y
<leudaimon>
yeah, without a shield at least it tends to go nose first too soon on suborbital reentries
<Rokker>
leudaimon: damn, reentry burn was a bit steeper than i had hoped
<leudaimon>
on mercury style at least reentry is pretty steep and it works better than shallow
<Rokker>
leudaimon: yeah but its gonna put me in the gulf, how will the navy find me
<leudaimon>
:D
<Rokker>
leudaimon: this is what i get for overpacking my retropack with solid fuel
<leudaimon>
did you survive after all?
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<leudaimon>
unless you die from g-forces, it shouldn't influence on you burning up
<leudaimon>
? it looked like you were fine in the picture... at what alt did you burn up?
<Rokker>
my heat shield overheated?
<Rokker>
wtf
<leudaimon>
that is unexpected, unless you are very shallow
<Rokker>
leudaimon: 73 km and 7.2 km/s
<Rokker>
that might do it...
<leudaimon>
my first orbits on the mercury capsule I aim for a negative peri
<leudaimon>
if you stay too long in the atm, your ablator is totally burned
<Rokker>
i dont think thats what happened
<Rokker>
im gonna try a short, but fast suborbital hol
<Rokker>
hop
<Rokker>
see if i can replicate it
<leudaimon>
yeah, maybe there is some problem with your install. Do you have DRE?
<Rokker>
or, ya know, my rocket could fail 15 seconds into launch
<Rokker>
that works too
<Rokker>
leudaimon: of course
<leudaimon>
lol, not your day
<leudaimon>
well, got to go... good luck!
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<zilti>
Are the RO configs for RealChutes and Deadly Reentry making those weaker/deadlier?
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<Probus>
I've just had an outstandingly good idea for a mod!
<rsparkyc>
go on
<Probus>
The mod lets you place a part on the center of gravity instead of the center of a part
<Probus>
Center of thrust also
<Probus>
Will let you work back to front or front to back
<Probus>
Also, on an unrelated subject. Is there a way to choose/sort by Real Fuels fuel type?
<Probus>
So I could sort all the hydrolox engines out of the crowd
<rsparkyc>
so, maybe adding attachment nodes AT the CoM?
<rsparkyc>
not sure about part2
<Probus>
Yeah, CoM was what I meant.
<xShadowx>
Probus: the sorting you can be if you add another tag to the tag line in configs, then search for said tag
<xShadowx>
i dont think / atleast havent seen RF/RO use em for all the fuel types yet heh
<rsparkyc>
the tricky part is, when attaching something inline with the center of mass, you're going to change the CoM of the vessel. so really, you probably want nodes showing where you would change the CoM in only one axis
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<Probus>
I was thinking about attaching engines rsparkyc. That wouldn't matter if the CoM changed in that case, would it?
<rsparkyc>
ahh, so really, you want to add an engine so its thrust is inline with the current CoM
<Probus>
Correct!
<rsparkyc>
so it takes the thrust vector of the engine into account when calculating where the node would show up
<rsparkyc>
tricky part is if you're doing more than one engine
<rsparkyc>
you'll want to be able to attach multiple around the CoM
<rsparkyc>
so you'd probably want more than just the singe node
<rsparkyc>
unless you used some sort of thrust plate
<Probus>
ditto
<xShadowx>
rsparkyc: pick up the summetry setting to see how many engines are applying, you already know the center, so :)
<rsparkyc>
that's true
<rsparkyc>
maybe you hold down a modifier key to "attach to CoM"
<rsparkyc>
kinda like how you can do that to only attach on nodes
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<Theysen>
stratochief|away, hyped for expansion?/s
<rsparkyc>
anyone here getting it for free?
<Theysen>
yes, spacedock.com has me covered :P :D for real, not me I bought 1.1
<Theysen>
* 1.0
<rsparkyc>
haha
<Thomas>
rsparkyc: That depends on Squad caring about previous statements
<rsparkyc>
they said they would honor it
<Theysen>
they confirmed in the thread
<rsparkyc>
which is reassuring to hear
<Thomas>
nice
* Thomas
wont get it for free so he doesnt care :P
<rsparkyc>
even though i bought it 2 years after
<Theysen>
I am so excited about the price and the aftermath of that
<rsparkyc>
haha
<rsparkyc>
my guess is $20
<rsparkyc>
and honestly, i'll pay for it
<waerloga>
depends on what the expansion is/does
<rsparkyc>
because the game by far has been totally worth what i've already paid
<waerloga>
in general I'd be in favor of shelling out for it though
<waerloga>
assuming they don't pull an Elite Dangerous with it :(
<rsparkyc>
more out of respect for what i've already gotten
<Theysen>
besides the argument (which is a good one tbh) of having paid 20 bucks for 2000 hours of playtime - part mod and some yet to be valued mission manager isn't worth 20 dollars, objectively
<Thomas>
I give them 2 months before a modder clones the expansion :P
<waerloga>
heh, wouldn't suprise me if it was the other direction :P
<rsparkyc>
haven't we pretty much done that?
<Theysen>
Thomas, I really think we already have everything of that available except scenario manager
<Theysen>
or whatever it will be
<Thomas>
See? :D Not that unrealistic
<Theysen>
some of the first posts actually directed to the two mods which they sound like to introduce, I laughed :D
<rsparkyc>
haha, yeah, i saw that
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<regex>
wait what? Squad announced an expansion pack?
<soundnfury>
regex: yeah, but it sounds pretty meh
<regex>
Ah, lmao
<regex>
hahaha
<regex>
I mean, great, new parts, but the mission builder is too little, too late.
<egg|zzz|egg>
B787_300: so, I'm randomly walking through the KSP fora, and I see that, and I shall now slap you http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/120911-is-it-possible-to-now-have-true-nbody-simulation-in-ksp/#comment-2179695
* egg|zzz|egg
slaps B787_300 with a whale shark
<soundnfury>
egg|zzz|egg: on average you will read sqrt(n) threads before falling into a flamewar
<egg|zzz|egg>
where n is what?
<soundnfury>
the width of the road, obviously
<soundnfury>
(you said you were randomly walking, I couldn't _not_ make a joke about that. Whaddaya want, a fully cited and referenced paper in conformance with J. Appl. Stat. formatting guidelines?)
<soundnfury>
(PS. I have no idea whether there is a J. Appl. Stat. or even if that's how you'd abbreviate it if there was one)
<stratochief|away>
Probus: the tags used in the vab for the search are configurable. it shouldn't be too hard to create some MM code that checks engines for RF modules, adds appropriate tags to speed vab searching. tl;dr I don't think it exists now, wouldn't be that hard to create
stratochief|away is now known as stratochief
<stratochief>
!tell Theysen. I'm vaguely curious of about the expansion. i think I may have had KSP long enough to get it free.
<Qboid>
stratochief: I'll redirect this as soon as they are around.
<xShadowx>
xpac to ksp?
<xShadowx>
o.O
* xShadowx
finds nothing on google newer than 3 years
<stratochief>
most things in the expansion pack sound like things we already have in mods, as usual
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<stratochief>
and hell, I haven't played stock enough in the past 1-2 years to even know what tweakables are, even
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<xShadowx>
so just copying ideas and nothing of value to me, kk
<stratochief>
xShadowx: you can read for yourself, I can't decide that for you
<stratochief>
if mission builder is compatible with Contract Configurator, it might be useful. nobody has made an in-game or gui way to configure contracts, as far as I'm aware. that would be nice for modders
<regex>
It's not contracts though, it's "missions"
<regex>
if it were something like "proposing a mission to the higher ups" I'd be all about it.
<regex>
but no, it's more like a "challenge mode" kind of thing.
<stratochief>
regex: you could make completing a Mission alter your career save game, as a mod? :P
<xShadowx>
squad is impressing me less and less ;/
<stratochief>
xShadowx: every hour I play modded KSP, I'm gradually more impressed :)
<xShadowx>
ksp would be dead without you guys<3
<stratochief>
I've gotten a lot of value for my paltry 23 CAD. 23 CAD would barely buy me a sammich from the US now, let alone thousands of hours of fun, learning, and community
<xShadowx>
(you guys as in modders.....too many pansy arcade balance players would still play without RO :P )
<stratochief>
well, technically perhaps my CAD was converted to Pesos. but some KSP devs lived in the US, so I'm at least fractionally right
<xShadowx>
uh?
<xShadowx>
$23 canadian would buy me a big fucking sandwich in US
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<stratochief>
I'm exagerating somewhat; I'm just bitter because I've wanted to travel to the US a few times in the past few years, but the exchange rate is just terrible
<xShadowx>
lazy convert what 15 USD, spend $10-12 on pound of tasty meat, loaf of bread 2 bucks, then a tomato+onion about 1 buck
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<stratochief>
but at least I'm still white, male, and english enough I'm unlikely to get turned away at the border
<xShadowx>
get 4-5 sammiches
<stratochief>
xShadowx: tourists tend not to make their own sammiches from scratch :P
<Rokker>
stratochief: come to dayton u bitch
<xShadowx>
tourists are stupid :P
<stratochief>
Rokker: I'm waiting for your country to get great again
<Rokker>
stratochief: we aren't even that far across the border
<stratochief>
Rokker: when are you going to confront the chinese over their currency manipulation, and get your dollar back in order?
<Rokker>
stratochief: illegal immigration is already down 15% so I'd say it's well on its way
<B787_300>
egg|zzz|egg: why was that slap worhty
<xShadowx>
legal immagrants is also down
<stratochief>
god dammit Rokker, I thought you were supposed to be getting an education... what are the error bars on that 15%, after like 1-2 months of presidentury?
<stratochief>
xShadowx: haha, I was going to say that too. travel and tourism to the US are also way down , although only time will tell if any trend sticks
<Rokker>
stratochief: hey, the other side seems perfectly happy to judge him on 2 months
<Rokker>
why shouldn't I be allowed?
<stratochief>
Rokker: I can judge the lies that come out of someone's mouth immediately (I've been wiretapped by Obama!) but statistics take time to.. ferment?
<xShadowx>
stratochief: oh wi wasnt even into tourism yet, just legal people who came for business, legal papers and all, detained and denied entry XD
<Rokker>
stratochief: I still have yet to see credible evidence from either side of that claim
<regex>
stratochief: why would I make that mod?
<Rokker>
so to call it a lie...
<Rokker>
seems a bit much
<regex>
lol, motherfucker lied
<B787_300>
Rokker: well he also accused the Brits of spying on him
<regex>
plain an d simple
<regex>
it's pretty much all Trump does.
<stratochief>
Rokker: but tl;dr there, some things are more complex to calculate/compare, and so they take more time to observe meaningful changes, other things are easy to test shortly after they've been said
<Rokker>
B787_300: because a former intelligence official claimed it first
<B787_300>
and you wouldnt see concrete evidence that it didnt happen as if it did it would be classified and if it didnt there is no evidence
<stratochief>
regex: because... you'd potentially get value from it? it might be fun for you?
<regex>
pffft
<regex>
the fuck would I try to salvage career mode for?
<B787_300>
Rokker: the FISA court apps that were mentioned and that he is absing his claims off of make no mention of trump other than it was a request to tap Trump tower
<B787_300>
and that was in realtion to his ties with a russian bank
<B787_300>
not political
<Rokker>
B787_300: oh then it's fine then
<B787_300>
its not like he wiretapped the tower to use for political gain
<Rokker>
nothing wrong with a sitting administration trying to tap a building owned by a political opponent
<B787_300>
but as part of a ligitimate concern and investigation
<Rokker>
that's perfectly ethical
<xShadowx>
what? a politician lying? le gasp!
* stratochief
kicks xShadowx for excessive cynicism
<xShadowx>
excessive? nah just the right amount :P
<Rokker>
I'm sorry but no B787_300, that's fucked up regardless imo. shouldn't have been done, they should have found another way to conduct surveillance
* stratochief
hands xShadowx a copy of "Everybody poops, everybody lies"
<B787_300>
Rokker: at least this way there was a judge and record of it?
* xShadowx
goes poop and uses it to wipe
* stratochief
hands the CIA the powers to drone murder whoever they want
<B787_300>
better than the CIA hacking / planting phyical bugs
<xShadowx>
stratochief: uh.....they already do :P
<stratochief>
Single paya health care for all!
<Rokker>
B787_300: and how can we trues that they didn't do more secretive means as well
<Rokker>
trust
<stratochief>
alright, going to the gym, ttyl
stratochief is now known as stratochief|away
<B787_300>
Rokker: we have to trust them not to abuse their powers and that the oversight commitees in congress and the courts are doing their jobs
<Rokker>
B787_300: why should I trust the Obama administration at all to have followed any reasonable ethics
<B787_300>
why should i trust the Trump administration?
<Rokker>
you shouldnt
<regex>
did you all hear about how Tillerson was "fatigued" in Korea and didn't engage in some pleasantries? Good thing we didn't elect noted pneumonia-fainter and warmonger Hillary Clinton now that all options, including military, are on the table for dealing with North Korea.
<xShadowx>
CIA isnt hascking / spying on you.......thats NSA job :)
<B787_300>
regex: i am more concerned that Tillerson says diplomacy has failed for NK
<stratochief|away>
does the sitting pres approve FISA warrants?
<Rokker>
it's their job to give you a reason to trust them B787_300
<regex>
Tru^H^H^HBannon wants a war to "unite" the U.S. again.
<Rokker>
Obama failed it, trump isn't doing the best job at it, B787_300
<B787_300>
Rokker: and unsubstaiated claims are not the way to do that
* stratochief|away
expects an answer when he gts back :P
<Rokker>
B787_300: I agree
<B787_300>
stratochief|away: TO WHAT QUESTION?
<B787_300>
whoops hit the caps lock button there
<B787_300>
sorry about that
<regex>
[14:03:04] <stratochief|away> does the sitting pres approve FISA warrants?
<Rokker>
I think taking the firm route with North Korea is the right way
<B787_300>
No the FISA court does
<regex>
Answer: No, no they do not.
* xShadowx
hands B787_300 glasses
<Rokker>
even if north korea doesn't back down, China has begun to speed up their separation from noko
<Rokker>
since trumps election
<B787_300>
and the justices on that court are appointed to 7 year terms (and iirc they have to be confirmed by the oversight committees)
<B787_300>
Rokker: they were backing away just as fast under obama
<Rokker>
oh ur right, I remember that time they cut off coal imports from North Korea under the Obama admin
<Rokker>
no... no wait
<regex>
Only now they may come back considering a land war in NK is going to greatly affect China, and put the U.S. in control of the peninsula
<B787_300>
...
<B787_300>
yes because they really backed harsh sanctions under the bush administration...
<B787_300>
oh wait they didnt
<Rokker>
what does that have to do with anything
<B787_300>
Rokker: they have been backing away at the same rate for about the past 10 years
<B787_300>
which is to say slowly
<Rokker>
nah
<Rokker>
it's sped up recently
<B787_300>
and you dont cut off coal until you have done other tactics first
<Probus>
Why do Delta rockets look like they are going to catch fire right before launch. Flame billowing up the sides.
<B787_300>
Probus: un burned H2
<Probus>
yeah, but the have sparkers down there.
<B787_300>
pools in the flame trench and gets ignited at engine startup
<B787_300>
the sparklers are reasonably new (3 launches ago?)
<B787_300>
and they arent 100% effective
<Rokker>
Probus: don't listen to him
<Probus>
:)
<Rokker>
they just do it cause it looks cool
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<SirKeplan>
Rokker: are you saying that china has been distancing themelves from north korea more, because of trump?
<SirKeplan>
i had always assumed it's because of north korea.
<Rokker>
SirKeplan: I think they are doing it at a faster rate now because they are more afraid of reprisals from trump than they were from obama
<egg|zzz|egg>
B787_300: "pseudo"?
<B787_300>
egg|zzz|egg: oh come off it you arent doing true nbody calculations
<egg|zzz|egg>
...
<egg|zzz|egg>
what the hell do you think I'm doing
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<egg|zzz|egg>
I *am* integrating n-body and extended-body gravitation, that's the whole bloody point! (extended-body only including oblateness at this point, more harmonics will be added later)
<soundnfury>
... fight!
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn
<egg|zzz|egg>
Qboid?
<egg|zzz|egg>
!channel -serious:false
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn
* Qboid
gives egg|zzz|egg a pen
* egg|zzz|egg
stabs B787_300 with a pen.
<egg|zzz|egg>
soundnfury: here
<B787_300>
oh it is on
<B787_300>
!wpn
* Qboid
gives B787_300 a cathode ray reflector
<soundnfury>
!wpn B787_300
* Qboid
gives B787_300 a mu heptode
<egg|zzz|egg>
!wpn
* Qboid
gives egg|zzz|egg a shippy commutative exception/solenoid hybrid
* B787_300
sends ionizing radiation at egg|zzz|egg
<B787_300>
and egg|zzz|egg look at that DATE of that comment
<egg|zzz|egg>
B787_300: sure
<egg|zzz|egg>
but there's no statute of limitations on the penalty of fishslapping :-p
* B787_300
finds and slaps egg|zzz|egg with a Megachasma pelagios
<egg|zzz|egg>
B787_300: but anyway, I *am* doing true nbody calculations, that is, integrating the equations of motion with Newtonian gravitation
<B787_300>
well then back then (and until just now) i though you were simplifying some
<egg|zzz|egg>
hence why I corrected you, now you know :D
<stratochief|away>
egg|zzz|egg: did you have to turn the safety off on qboid to get a weapon?
<stratochief|away>
also, I'll leave this N-body fight to the two of you, predicting the outcome of a fight with more than 2 bodies is far too complicated
<stratochief|away>
egg|zzz|egg: because I thought it was funny, that is all :)
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief|away: that weapon is mightier than the sword though
<egg|zzz|egg>
(I'm sure Qboid has plenty of swords too)
<stratochief|away>
egg|zzz|egg: is early school just a many year waiting process while you pass a background check before they arm us?
<egg|zzz|egg>
hah
<B787_300>
!wpn stratochief|away
* Qboid
gives stratochief|away a really big cannon
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief|away: I like that picture where I am swimming amidst the numerical integration papers though
<stratochief|away>
Rokker: setting rhetoric aside, I wish there was a place I could go to see how Trump supporters interpret the... unusual things he says, and the way he says them
stratochief|away is now known as stratochief
<stratochief>
Rokker: because I can never predict where they will go wth it, I really can't. at least seeing some of the gears churning would provide me some insight
<Rokker>
I wouldn't know because I'm not a full on trump supporter
<Probus>
Rockets not changes
<stratochief>
egg|zzz|egg: can projectiles from my cannon reach orbital velocity?
<stratochief>
Rokker: from my perspective, and the perspective of many here and in the SpaceX IRC, you're close enough that talking to you is helpful for us :)
<egg|zzz|egg>
stratochief: wouldn't they hit you in the back of the head in that case?
<stratochief>
Rokker: 'close enough', as in 'further in that direction than anybody else I speak to more than 1 minute a week'
<stratochief>
egg|zzz|egg: possibly, I'll have to put a safety on it
<stratochief>
Rokker: to bring up the wiretapping example, and not lead into argument, I interpret ".. President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process ... " as saying Obama himself took action, or approved of the tapping of Trump's individual phones
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<regex>
random DC what the hell
<Rokker>
disagree
<stratochief>
Rokker: which, to me, doesn't include intelligency agencies having investigated him and possibly acquired FISA warrents that placed phone taps in one of the many buildings he owns
<Rokker>
stratochief: I interpret that as the Obama administration tried to surveil me or the people around me during the election, which is sketchy af
<stratochief>
Rokker: I'm sure you do disagree, and in general I'd like to hear why, disagreeing is fine. at this point, just seeing what (to me) appears like convoluted illogic is still useful for gaining insight into how others interpret these words differently
<Rokker>
to be honest I have no real side in this argument
<Rokker>
as I have said, neither side has convinced me they are right
<stratochief>
Rokker: for it to constitute Obama being low, wouldn't the action actually have to relate to Obama himself, and to actual phone calls containing trump or his campaign team?
<stratochief>
Rokker: yeah, fair enough, we'll talk more across the political divide later :)
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<Rokker>
stratochief|shower: it's very common to use a presidents name to refer to actions done under his administration
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stratochief|shower is now known as stratochief
<stratochief>
Rokker: in some contexts, yes. in this context, I think it is wrong or grey, and at the very least misleading
<stratochief>
Rokker: but we'll agree to disagree there, I appreciate you explainng how you interpretted the tweet
<stratochief>
Rokker: anything to change your beliefs on when Falcon Heavy will first leave the ground, since we last talked about it ~2 weeks ago?
<Rokker>
stratochief: I down even remember what I said for that
<stratochief>
Rokker: lol. god dammit Rokker. record your predictions, it makes you a better person :)
<Rokker>
it all depends on how quickly they fix 40
<stratochief>
Rokker: well, what is your estimation launch time range now, with over 65 or 95% confidence say
<stratochief>
I think it is still somewhat likely/possible this calendar year
<soundnfury>
stratochief: given how heavily high-ranking politicians structure their dealings for plausible deniability, the convention that they are responsible for things they didn't know about is pretty necessary
<Rokker>
Q4
<Rokker>
or 2018
<Rokker>
prolly Q4
<stratochief>
soundnfury: I'd agree that were true, if corporations were held within an order of magnitude of that standard
<soundnfury>
stratochief: ehhh, the primary regulator of corporations is the markets, whereas the primary regulator of politicians is public opinion. I think the latter requires stricter standards
<soundnfury>
(and sure, the legal system _should_ apply fairly to everyone, but given it's designed by and for lawyers, it's no wonder high-priced lawyers can win essentially any case unless the other side has them too)
<stratochief>
both public opinion and markets are easy to manipulate. market perceptions are very frequently manipulated to through public perception, so...
<stratochief>
*too. have have forgotten the face of my father
<soundnfury>
stratochief: well, you can manipulate share prices that way. But if the public ain't buying your product, you can hide that from the public but you can't hide it from your bank balance
<stratochief>
soundnfury: your customers are easy to manipulate too, because they lack complete information. scumbag middle america: hates imported goods taken' our jobs, loves Walmart...
<stratochief>
soundnfury: and I may agree with you on 'stricter standards' for politics, I just again think they need to be at least within an order of magnitude, and they currently are not
<soundnfury>
stratochief: it's the same old story, Big Business gets into bed with Big Government. (Then the Left, outraged, demands yet bigger government to keep business under control, not realising that they're playing right into the corporate fat cats' hands. Sigh.)
<stratochief>
soundnfury: and the right plays the 'same old story' of 'you can't trust government, look how bad we govern when we're in power' :P
<stratochief>
both sides have weaknesses. I like regulations, but regulations can be simple. fuck lawyers :)
<soundnfury>
stratochief: so, I think comparing D to R kinda misses the point: they're *both* fans of Big Government, they just want different bits of it to be big
<stratochief>
if you can't write a clear and simple enforceable regulation, get the hell out of government. if you want to fail at governing, then blame it on how government itself is bad and corrupt, and not take personal responsibility, get the hell out.
<soundnfury>
stratochief: the problem isn't that we don't know what a good regulation would look like. For many things that's pretty much a solved problem.
<stratochief>
soundnfury: true. at least D's are honest in that they don't deny that they like government being large
<soundnfury>
The problem is that the incentives that drive the behaviour of governments (both the legislators and the bureaucrats) are not ones which produce good regulations.
<soundnfury>
If you aren't trying to fix that, then arguing about any particular individual regulation or political bun-fight is pretty much pointless
<stratochief>
government needs more influence from public feedback and voters, not lobbiests and campaign funders, yeah
<stratochief>
although public feedback can be manipulated, because polls can be manipulated through bad question formation. all complicated shit.
<soundnfury>
imho, public choice theory shows that the only solution to the problem is to get rid of government entirely. Basically, decentralisation and devolution of power taken to its logical limit: the individual
<stratochief>
lol. that is one hell of a mad hatter solution to pull out of public choice theory, but alright, you're entitled to your opinion :P
<soundnfury>
if people are only ever making decisions about themselves, with their own money, they have skin in the game, and they pay the costs of their behaviour
<soundnfury>
stratochief: I never said I was conventional. Or sane, for that matter.
<regex>
I wouldn't go that far, but smaller government is definitely easier to understand.
<regex>
or rather, more local government.
<stratochief>
soundnfury: and now, you play into the hands of individuals which will have unrivaled, unfettered power in that ideal system, powerful & wealthy individuals. bring back the robber barons! now with corporate power, corporate personhood, and Money = Free Speech
<soundnfury>
stratochief: uh, it really doesn't work like that. /me waves in the direction of David Friedman
<stratochief>
regex: yeah. if a problem can be solved on a local level, it should. states can have state wide solutions to problem, in many cases
<stratochief>
soundnfury: they collapsed bad goverment in the middle east, and created a mess. I've seen enough anarcho-capitalism for one lifetime
<soundnfury>
stratochief: I don't think the middle east is running an-cap. The closest thing there is Somalia, and they're if anything doing better than some of their neighbours
<soundnfury>
key point here: anarchy is not lawlessness
<soundnfury>
an an-cap society would have laws, courts, even police. They just wouldn't have any special privileges beyond the rights of the individuals who constituted them.
<stratochief>
soundnfury: bad time to push Somalia as a bastion of success, starvation abounds yet again
<soundnfury>
the only 'social contracts' would be actual written contracts, which would only bind their signatories. (Anyone without such a contract would be outwith law - an outlaw.)
<soundnfury>
stratochief: I repeat: "doing better than some of their neighbours"
<soundnfury>
for people with no cultural history of Western-style individualist capitalism to guide them, they're doing better than most of us an-caps expected they would
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<stratochief>
sweet christ, you've got low standards. but to be fair, I don't know the solution to african starvation either, I just don't pretend to
<Theysen>
regex XD thanks for giving this thread some spice :D
<stratochief>
o/ Theysen
<Theysen>
yo stratochief
<regex>
Theysen, what did I do?
<regex>
Oh, the announcement thread?
<Theysen>
making history and stuff
<regex>
God, roverdude is such a fucking tool
<Theysen>
classes rant
<stratochief>
where ferram at? I wanted to badger him about a FAR release soon; I'm going away for a few weeks soon, and I'd like an RO release before then if possible
<stratochief>
Theysen: regex. oh, so that isn't Kerbal Shave Classes?
<Theysen>
stratochief, where's your trip to if you don't mind asking
<Theysen>
are you the only release capable person besides vacant Mr Kell?
<stratochief>
Theysen: bi-annual (once ever two years, in this case) pilgrimage to the region I was born, also for a friend's wedding
<stratochief>
Theysen: not the only one with the rights to do it, but the only one who has rolled one previously as far as I know
<soundnfury>
stratochief: "biennial", then
<Theysen>
maybe speak to the other privileged if ferram4 holds back and he releases during your absence, SirKeplan and rsparkyc I assume?
<stratochief>
Theysen: meh, if they want to roll one while I'm gone, they can. they are their own people :)
<Theysen>
right :)
<stratochief>
I might just make an RO release that won't be terribly useful to people, since all the RO pre-reqs won't yet be on CKAN. but at least our part will be done and available
<stratochief>
soundnfury: thanks :)
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<Theysen>
fair enough :)
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<regex>
Have a good weekend everyone.
<regex>
o/
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