<kmath>
YouTube - I Want To Be A Robot (Czechoslovakia 1986)
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<Lyneira>
That's a very interesting advancement to read about
<Lyneira>
The jet design generating thrust by turning air into plasma
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<Althego>
thunder. that is pressure change (thrust) by generateing plasma
<Lyneira>
It's one part of the puzzle but I think the biggest hurdle will be the energy storage
<Althego>
as always
<Althego>
or you just add a pedal to each seat :)
<Lyneira>
Nothing we have stores energy as densely as fossil fuels do atm
<Althego>
uranium :)
<Lyneira>
Fair enough but I don't think we want a fleet of flying nuclear reactors around the world
<Althego>
true
<Lyneira>
And even if you could get batteries closer to fossil fuel energy density, fossil fuel has the big advantage of being gone once used up and making the airplane (a lot) lighter and more efficient
<Lyneira>
Batteries are still weighing your plane down once empty, making landing more difficult
<Lyneira>
You can't simply put as much battery mass on a plane as you would fuel
<Althego>
we dont actually need the plasma
<Althego>
the turbofan makes like 90% of its trust in the fan
<Althego>
just have an eletricm otor and a 10% bigger fan
<Lyneira>
Maybe the jet can generate thrust more efficiently with the available energy?
<Althego>
and there you can have really high efficiency
<Lyneira>
Or is this plasma jet purely for things that need speeds above what turbofans can give
<Althego>
so if you can reach the energy density with battery, you are going to be way more efficient than a jet, even if the weight is constant
<Lyneira>
Are turbofans suitable for cruising at mach 0.8 at 10 km or so?
<Althego>
that is what they do
<Lyneira>
Electric ones
<Lyneira>
Hm, wonder why the big hooha about plasma jet then
<Althego>
i dont know of any commercial application of an electric turbofan
<Althego>
but as i said most of the thrust comes from the fan, so basiccally a strangely shaped propeller
<Lyneira>
Well yes, but that is because energy density doesn't make electric flight feasible for anything more than recreational short range
<Althego>
therefore that tiny amoun that you get from the jet exhaust doesnt matter
<Althego>
currently
<Lyneira>
Well, there's always beamed power...
<Althego>
supposedly some chinese cities planning electic flying taxis with automatically replacable batreries
<Althego>
hehe which also duplicates as a directed energy erapon
<Althego>
weapion
<Althego>
aka deathray
<Lyneira>
Why bother lugging all the energy you need for flight with you when you can just have it beamed to you
<Althego>
trains do it like that
<Althego>
it would be way better to just have ultra fast electric trains
<Lyneira>
If you beamed it in from over a wide source area and/or multiple locations that would create both redundancy and lower risk to anything that isn't the focus of the beam
<Althego>
first of all trains are easier to travel with. the airline industry has all that fake security and useless coplexity
<Lyneira>
But trains require all that pesky expensive infrastructure and they can't go as fast as airplanes
<Althego>
they can go almostas fast
<Lyneira>
Unless you're suggesting the world invests uncountable billions in a vast hyperloop network
<Althego>
and you dont need to waste hours at an airport. they have comprable speed for longer travels even now
<Althego>
hyperloop just sounds good, doesnt seem to be useful
<Lyneira>
No train from Europe to the US that I know of
<Lyneira>
And other similar long distance trips
<Althego>
abut you cant travel through the atlantic by train
<Althego>
so planes will always have some place
<Lyneira>
I hope one day we'll build an orbital ring
<Althego>
around earth?
<Lyneira>
Yup
<Althego>
i man is it a rotating ring station orbiting earth, or a huge ring around the earth?
<packbart>
delivery of my new computer toy is delayed until late next week :/ - just because of an eSATA cable I don't really need. I wish I'd known before
<Althego>
astronomers would be outraged
<FLHerne>
The second one would be cooler
<FLHerne>
I don't think the astronomers would care
<Althego>
they are very much against starlink even now
<FLHerne>
If you can build a giant orbiting ring, you can build a few space telescopes
<packbart>
can't see oncoming asteroids through the ring
<FLHerne>
(or just put telescopes on the giant ring)
<Althego>
ah yes obvious solution
<Lyneira>
Althego: A huge ring around the earth that levitates by a combination of a central ring that spins faster than orbital velocity, while the static portion rests on magnetic levitation powered by the spinning part's energy
<packbart>
that argument has been made about starlink, too. astronomers say: space telescopes cannot replace ground-based telescopes for various reasons
<packbart>
"astronomers say" - I sound like a certain head. the one astronomer I chat with on IRC explained that ;)
<FLHerne>
packbart: That's true currently because there's no way to build space telescopes nearly as large as the really big ground ones
<Althego>
actually you could put the biggest telescopes in space. because here on earth it is extremely hard to make them big because of gravity
<FLHerne>
An orbiting ring around the entire planet presupposes the ability to build very large things in space
<FLHerne>
Althego: Sure, but you need some way to launch and assemble them with less money than exists in the world :P
<Lyneira>
Building large in space is easier than on earth, you don't have nearly as much stress forces to worry about
<Althego>
simple, you need to take the materials from space, not taking it up from the gravity well of earth
<Lyneira>
Anyway, once you have an orbital ring, you can move people and stuff up into space and launch them into orbit for costs that approach a metro ticket fare
<FLHerne>
Thus > I don't think the astronomers would care
<FLHerne>
They care *now* because we don't have trivially cheap launch or in-space material production
<Lyneira>
You could literally take a carriage along a tether up to the orbital ring, zip halfway around the planet and come back down another tether as if you took a metro ride
<FLHerne>
So there's no affordable way to replace ground-based telescopes potentially affected by Starlink with space-based ones
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<Lyneira>
It also makes the construction of additional orbital rings way easier
<FLHerne>
But like I said, and as you say, that problem will have gone away when space megastructures are a thing
<Lyneira>
You can build them at slightly different altitudes and connect them together to allow passengers to transfer from ring to ring to get someplace that a single orbital ring can't get you to
<FLHerne>
These things don't seem very fault-tolerant, though
<FLHerne>
What happens if part of the maglev system fails, or even needs maintenance?
<FLHerne>
You can't spin down something the circumference of a planet
<FLHerne>
(still, it's better than those 'fountains')
<Lyneira>
You build them with so much fault tolerance and redundancy that it simply doesn't happen
<Lyneira>
It's not gonna be receiving power from just one connection on earth
<FLHerne>
"When something that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong, it is usually impossible to get at or repair."
<Lyneira>
And the ring itself will have a lot of orbital energy stored in it too
<Lyneira>
I think the video does address "what could go wrong" too though
<Lyneira>
It's a common question for all active support based structures but that's I think in part because we've little experience in building with them
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<Althego>
if something goes wrong scotty, geordi laforge, chief o'brien, etc fixes it :)
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<Lyneira>
Energy production and availability is going to get better and active support systems can be built with enough stored energy that they can survive extended power outages or redundancy to survive mechanical failures
<Lyneira>
Engineering a skyscraper is a rigorous process now, active support structures will get just as much rigourous engineering into covering all the possible failure modes
<packbart>
Dres once had such a ring station in ancient times. It crashed. That's what created the canyon
<Althego>
just as in energy laser is good for everything, in matter graphene solves the problems
<Althego>
if we had a lot of graphene, we could produce all kinds of cool things
<Althego>
radiation shielding, strong structural materials, better than ever batteries
<Althego>
ah yes, also computers
<Althego>
what is the origin of valles marineris?
<packbart>
Space Marines, obviously
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<darsie>
Can I use the RWs of a pod if I klaw it?
<Althego>
it is like docking. it becomes one ship
<darsie>
Sharing fuel won't work, I guess, so I don't have much hope for EC.
<darsie>
hmm
<Althego>
but yes fuel flow rules apply
<darsie>
ah, ok.
<darsie>
or ... what do you mean?
<Althego>
where fuel cant flow through, wont flow through even with a calw
<darsie>
You did not answer my original question.
<Althego>
it becomes one ship, so other resources should eb available
<darsie>
ok
* darsie
still tests it ...
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<packbart>
there are fuel lines through the klaw. just don't grapple a heat shield, girder or other non-crossfueling part
<packbart>
reentering the atmosphere in that config was were I had most troubles
* packbart
eventually gave up on part recovery contracts
<darsie>
Why give up?
<darsie>
Bored?
<darsie>
ah
<darsie>
nm
<Flayer>
packbart, giant heat shields?
<packbart>
that, too
<darsie>
I can reklaw in orbit.
<darsie>
Shouldn't be an issue.
<packbart>
flayer: that would work. I might just give it a try again
<darsie>
dang, didn't save when landed. Launched at wrong phase angle to my orbiter for refuelling. Gonna take more time.
<kubi>
that grabber is cheating
<kubi>
KIS + KAS with pipes are nicer
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<packbart>
GroundConstruction - launch a recycler and turn the part into "MaterialKits" on the spot, return and produce a new part. StarTrek transporters, the manual way ;)
<packbart>
(yeah, it probably wouldn't fulfil the contract because the original ID is lost)
<darsie>
kubi: I used picoports.
<Flayer>
i got no contracts for duna, but i'm sending a mission anyway
<darsie>
flayer: You could wait 7 days and check again, repeat.
<Flayer>
i'm sure i'll get some funds from it eventually
<darsie>
Hmm, a single parachute was probably not enough for the Mk2 pod.
<darsie>
flayer: How?
<Flayer>
'move satellite x' 'investigate z for temperature with rover y'