Althego changed the topic of #KSPOfficial to: Kerbal Space Program official channel | versions: KSP1 1.11.1 | Rules: tinyurl.com/KSP-Rules | "modcall" to call ops | Δv maps: https://i.imgur.com/CHVnEeE.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/gBoLsSt.png | Apparently SpaceX can do both a successfull landing *and* a RUD
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<Althego>
stream on
<Althego>
1 minute
<Althego>
live easy to render darkness :)
<Althego>
landing
<Althego>
it was on top of the ship
<Althego>
but loss of signal
<Althego>
supposedly landed but no visual
<Althego>
the second 8th tiem booster
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<Deddly>
That Starship flight/flip/flop/landing/flight again/fireball was truly spectacular
<Mat2ch>
they really did it
<Mat2ch>
this is crazy stuff
<Mat2ch>
and as I expected ALL engines lit this time and no flame out on any of them :D
<Althego>
hehe
<Mat2ch>
but was a hard landing it seems
<Mat2ch>
but they landed it!
<Althego>
it was descending so slowly
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<Mat2ch>
Careful!
<Mat2ch>
Btw: Did SpaceX say why the last booster crashed?
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<Althego>
not yet
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<Mat2ch>
Althego: well, stolen, but funny: First Starship that flew twice.
<Mat2ch>
:D
<Althego>
yes with record reflight time of 5 minutes
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<sheeep>
hellooo
<Mod9000>
Hello, sheeep
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<Mat2ch>
hello sheeep
<sheeep>
hey Mat2ch
<Deddly>
Alrighty there
<Deddly>
<Mat2ch> Btw: Did SpaceX say why the last booster crashed? <--- It was an engine out on the way up, close to MECO. It happened to be one of the three they needed for the landing burn and it wouldn't relight
<Deddly>
re-entry/landing burn*
<Deddly>
<Althego> it was descending so slowly <-- it's apparently an illusion due to it's size. Compare the landing speed with the takeoff speed and you can see that the landing was quite a bit faster than I imagine they had planned for.
<Deddly>
What I want to know is: what was the yellow plume from one of the engines on the way up?
<Althego>
ah Mat2ch asked about the booster. i even linked a clip where somebody from spacex explained it
<Althego>
i thought he asked about the starship
<Deddly>
Ah
<Althego>
but the link was yesterday
<Deddly>
I find it interesting that was enough propellant left in Starship to generate such a large explosion.
<Mat2ch>
wait, the internal software is not designed in a way that it chooses a different set of engines for landing if one of the primary ones for landing failed at ascend?
<Mat2ch>
That would be one of the first things I'd add to the software...
<Mat2ch>
if ( engine[n] == State::Failed ) continue;
<Mat2ch>
;P
<Mat2ch>
and I would have a second sequence for landing when the center engine fails
<Mat2ch>
theoretically it should be possible to land on two engines as well
<Mat2ch>
it's just about being flexible here...
<packbart>
being more flexible means more testing, more certification, more ways to go wrong
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<packbart>
only unwritten code does not have bugs
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<Mat2ch>
true, but you can write code in a way that it is clear when it is called.
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<Mat2ch>
And it is easy to certify it then.
<Mat2ch>
Because this would be code that is only executed in case of a landing burn there is no change in the code for the ascend.
<packbart>
well, an argument could be made that if your engines are that unreliable that this code is necessary, maybe improve the engines instead
<packbart>
don't know they could upload / switch to different code manually after launch
<packbart>
+if
<packbart>
granted, it would be possible to use different logic builds changing with age
<packbart>
the old booster runs on the more flexible code while the fresh one hauling the expensive cargo is protected from that undetected bug in it that would lead to firing all or none of the engines at once
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<Althego>
based on the explanation, not the whole engine was faulty, but one specific part because of old age
<Althego>
that could be solved by some regular maintenance
<Althego>
or even just checkups
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<Althego>
i think tomorrow we are going to break our top new daily cases number
<Deddly>
Mat2ch, only three of the Falcon 9's engines can be re-lit in flight
<Althego>
ah so they are missing the hardware
<Deddly>
They have special plumbing and starting systems.
<Althego>
for t he ttab
<Althego>
that would add significant complexity and weight
<Deddly>
Yup, so if one of those engines goes, the only "backup" is to attempt re-entry with two engines, but they aren't likely to have the fuel reserves for that
<Althego>
but again, if it was the center engine could have tried landing with 2, then it is significantly harder, with less margin, but possible
<Deddly>
Still need three engines for re-entry
<Deddly>
3 engines or extra fuel for a longer burn on 2
<Althego>
ah yes that is 3, which means with too low twr the fuel loss would be significant
<Deddly>
But I would imagine the landing would be possible on 2 engines, yeah. They tried a triple-engine landing once, didn't they? One that failed?
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<Mat2ch>
Deddly: oh, well, I thought they all could be relit
<Mat2ch>
and I think they still do tripple engine landings for the high speed returns
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<Althego>
so anyway, whatever the engine boot is, i guess they are going to check them better
<Mat2ch>
no more holes!
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<Althego>
well here it is. everything closes
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Althego changed the topic of #KSPOfficial to: Kerbal Space Program official channel | versions: KSP1 1.11.1 | Rules: tinyurl.com/KSP-Rules | "modcall" to call ops | Δv maps: https://i.imgur.com/CHVnEeE.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/gBoLsSt.png | Apparently SpaceX can do both a successful landing *and* a RUD
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<Deddly>
Hey Fluburtur, made any fun flying machines lately?
<Deddly>
Fluburtur, did you see that Peter Sripol made a plane powered by a server fan?
<darsie>
I did.
<umaxtu>
a delta fan?
<Althego>
i saw some video with a guy in a garage (?) trying to fly a plane with a pc fan
<JVFoxy>
so.. I didn't expect SN10 go boom. the video I saw cut short after landing.. eh.. I had noticed it was leaning slight, maybe hit too hard?
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<Deddly>
It did seem to hit hard, yeah. I'm more interested in the yellow exhaust on the way up from one engine
<Deddly>
JVFoxy, it seemed to explode in the same manner as pressure vessels when they are overpressurised to destruction. My guess is it lost some structural integrity from the heavy landing
<JVFoxy>
didn't catch that part. Then again, seeing it lift off no problems, had been routine now
<JVFoxy>
Maybe fire got up inside, warmed the tank too much?
<Deddly>
It would have vented a lot of it was getting too much pressure
<Deddly>
if*
<JVFoxy>
perhaps.. have to wait and see
<Deddly>
I'm just stoked that they stuck the landing. I want to see an orbital return
<JVFoxy>
wasn't quite clear on how long between sticking the landing and boom.. one said it was a few minutes later?
<flayer>
yeah, a minute or two at least
<flayer>
i think if they had actual landing legs: no boom
<JVFoxy>
struts did have crush zones but I think they were pretty limited
<umaxtu>
it looked like they might've been leaking methane before the landing?
<Althego>
so the payload is 100t. impressive numbers
<Althego>
it seems to be around correct
<Althego>
!calc 380*9.81*ln(1200/220)
<Kerbot>
Althego => ~6324.02366111378121876241
<Althego>
oh wait
<Althego>
!calc 380*9.81*ln(1440/220)
<Kerbot>
Althego => ~7003.68196053028527434804
<Althego>
so if they hit their design numbers
<Althego>
and also have enough time to refill it completely
<Althego>
i would change this around, launch a starship in advance, fill it to the top, then send an other one with the passenger
<Althego>
s
<Althego>
and transfer them in orbit
<Althego>
dont make them wait for days in orbit
<flayer>
yeah, definitely
<flayer>
you basically always want a refueling rocket ready in orbit
<flayer>
imo
<flayer>
like, just build a ridiculously large platform
<Althego>
you need 6
<flayer>
at least 6 orange tanks
<umaxtu>
or make a fueling station in orbit
<flayer>
yeah, that's what i'm saying
<flayer>
there can be a gift shop and such
<flayer>
grocery store
<Althego>
strangely enough there is one other company trying to do refueling stations
<Althego>
i dont rememebr if it was blue origin or ula
<Althego>
but spacex doesnt want redueling stations
<Althego>
however many of their plans change
<Althego>
so this can change too
<Deddly>
A refuelling station would be cool, but it would also involve an additional step in the refuelling process
<Deddly>
First refuel the station, then refuel the ship
<Althego>
you can refuel that over time
<Althego>
and it has cooling so less evaporation
<Althego>
then just dock one, and be done with redueling
<Althego>
once
<Althego>
refueling
<Deddly>
I suppose it does make some sense because even if they're sending masses of craft like they want to, they still have to wait around for a launch window
<Althego>
so what if there is an issue? weather for example
<Althego>
the orbital depot is a buffer eliminating a lot of problems
<umaxtu>
might need more then one though, depending on the destination
<Althego>
or maybe launch all 6 refueling ships at the same time?
<Deddly>
So actually, a huge refuelling platform would spread out the necessary launches over two years instead of having to do them all at the same time
<Deddly>
But then you have to have the refuelling platform
<flayer>
it'd be much more than a refueling station
<flayer>
it'd be a staging area
<Deddly>
So instead of designing and building such a massive structure, they could have a bunch of refuelling stations that are just full Starships
<flayer>
but that's just a lot more infrastructure to build
<Althego>
no, because starships wouldnt have the cooling
<Deddly>
Well, they could make some with cooling
<Althego>
ok, the depot is not free. have to be designed and put into orbit
<flayer>
at first the process of "launch a fuel tank" + "launch the starship" will suffice
<flayer>
but the refueling platform/staging area is an inevitability, pretty much
<Deddly>
Just have a variant of Starship that serves as the fuelling station
<flayer>
"Oh, on the 70th launch we noticed something wrong with the rocket after getting into space"
<flayer>
"No worries, the engineers on the orbital platform will take care of it"
<flayer>
"Oh, they need food, but that's fine, there's a grocery store there."
<Deddly>
Launch one Starship "station" variant, then fill it with subsequent launches. Finally, when it's close to the launch window, launch the Mars variant with crew on-board, dock with the full one, and off you go.
<Althego>
where do you put the radiators?
<Althego>
are t hey folding out from the cargo bay?
<Deddly>
Yeah. All the necessary cooling systems are in the cargo bay
<Althego>
you have to fold them out to work
<Althego>
look at the iss
<Deddly>
Starship does have its own cooling, by the way. It has to keep that fuel cold all the way to Mars
<Althego>
according to elon, not really
<Althego>
some will evaporate and they are going to live with that
<Deddly>
Anyway, if it has fold-out solar panels like in the renders, there's no reason it can't have radiators too
<Althego>
steel is also not exactly the best insulator :)
<Althego>
the original renders with the solar panels were something like 2 iterations ago and showing it at some gas giant, i dont remember if it was jupiter or saturn
<Althego>
not much use there
<Deddly>
But as for a staging platform, it would be quite interesting to see how they could do that. I imagine they could have a huge station just made of a mass 6 of Starships all docked to a small central hub.
<Althego>
you can go to mars on solar panels, jupiter, barely if you are a tiny probe with no life support, just need to wake up occasionally
<Althego>
you need one starship only
<Althego>
for storage
<Althego>
you need 6 to launch because most of the fuel is burnt while getting into orbit
<Althego>
but you dont need more than one for a refueling
<Althego>
if it is full already
<Deddly>
Yeah you only need one, but for flayer's idea of a staging platform capable of repairs and such, you could have up to six docked to a small piece of hardware = big station
<Althego>
rotating ring station?
<Deddly>
Well no, because it can only dock on the engine side
<flayer>
i only really see such a staging platform be built once there is regular traffic to and from mars
<Althego>
then why is one nose without the tip?
<Althego>
maybe some docking port is going to be there?
<flayer>
i wouldn't place too much value on artwork
<Althego>
maybe have two modes for docking? one for fuel other for people? or maybe docking the nose to the engine section?
<Althego>
or it is completely different
<Althego>
they also promised windows
<Deddly>
OK, best to avoid that kind of joke in this channel, flayer
<Althego>
dragon originally had 4 windows, we are down to 2
<Althego>
so even starship might have a few small windows instead of that big section
<Deddly>
most likely. Each window is a potential point of failure
<Althego>
i guess they would be laminated glass
<Althego>
probably heavier than steel
<Althego>
but who knows, what is on dragon? just plastics?
<Deddly>
I know a boatbuilder who never, ever built any holes for pumping out liquids (e.g. toilet contents) below the water line. He said that, although it's common have such things and it's trivial to seal them, they can and do fail, and very many boats sink because of water getting in through such a point in the hull. I imagine similar thinking should apply on a spaceship
<Deddly>
A window is just a whole in the hull, sealed with something transparent
<Deddly>
hole*
<flayer>
like a ghost?!
<Althego>
build the ship from transparent material
<Althego>
i guess the aero is not that important, just what 2 minutes on the way up
<Deddly>
Might affect it a little on the way down, though
<Althego>
it flies sideways
<Althego>
so probably not that much
<Althego>
in fact the more drag it has the better
<Deddly>
Not much, no. But the CoP will change just a bit
<Althego>
what i am really hoping for, the route of choice to mars would be with a flyby of venus. supposedly it takes less delta v and is also faster
<Althego>
and you get to enjoy the clouds of venuys
<raptop>
The Venus flyby just opens up another launch window. Overall mission time is not meaningfully shorter, though time on the surface of Mars is (IIRC)
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<sheeep>
Jeb is back form Mun... yay
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<raptop>
;mission add You frog-blast the vent core.
<LunchBot>
raptop: Added mission: You frog-blast the vent core.
<packbart>
!mission
<LunchBot>
packbart: You upgrade your spacecraft control to be entirely keyboard-based. Your rocket wobbles itself into pieces.
<raptop>
oops
<FLHerne>
raptop: frog-blast?
<raptop>
Something the fake BoBs say in Marathon
<raptop>
(The ones made by the aliens, and will explode violently if killed or if they get too close to you)
* FLHerne
gives up on comprehending
<FLHerne>
;mission
<LunchBot>
FLHerne: You launch an epic mission destined to bring the Magic Boulder back to Kerbin. A whale falls out of the sky and flattens Kerbvier's School for Gifted Youngsters.
<raptop>
FLHerne: old Bungie FPS with a lot of weird/silly elements